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Post by amarsin on Sept 12, 2007 13:46:55 GMT -5
Well, Nin-gišzida and Gišzida are (or can be) the same person, with the latter being a rare variant.
The Sumerian "nin" means, in general, "queen" and is a common first element in Sumerian divine names. However, as this example (and many others) show, the "nin" must also refer to the masculine. Nin-gišzida is the son of Nin-azu, and so decidedly male. (Indeed, Nin-azu is Nin-gišzida's father, while his wife (and so Nin-gišzida's mother) is Nin-girida!)
For all the details, you can check the entry in the RlA s.v.
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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Sept 13, 2007 23:01:40 GMT -5
Thanks for your philological comments Amarsin! RIA would be a good way to go, though a less impressive act of referencing also may have some bearing here - Black and Green p.139 relate:
"Unexpectedly, in the myth of Adapa, the sage who traveled to heaven, we encounter Dumuzi and a god called Gišzida, certainly an abbreviated form of Ningišzida, guarding the gate to the Heaven of Anu (An), the highest heaven."
The myth of Adapa, for which our textual sources are considerably later then in Sumerian cases of "Ningišzida", is also the only case I can recall seeing this abbreviated version. Perhaps the abbreviated version was a later scribal convention or corruption.
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Post by amarsin on Sept 14, 2007 17:56:11 GMT -5
Actually, us4-he2-gal2, my understanding was that the name without the nin- appears in a few PNs here and there. That is a bit unusual, since you don't often otherwise see PNs abbreviated in such a way, but who knows, right?
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Post by cynsanity on Sept 16, 2007 2:26:58 GMT -5
Disclaimer: The opinion presented here is not in print, and
not all scholars on the ANE would agree. Note here that this
is the interpretation of me, blatantly influenced by stuff I
heard from my Sumerian professor. _____________________________
NIN is commonly translated as "lady". I don't have access to
my Labat right now (because a friend is sleeping on it, and I
am a bad and evil person who doesn't remove books from under
people's thighs when they fall asleep), but the cuneiform sign
with which NIN is written is the slightly simplified depiction
of a female vulva on top of a ...thing. If you look at the sign (a triangle with its point to the
right and a line from the tip of the right-hand point to the
middle of the vertical line that is to be considered the
triangle's base at the left), and turn it around 90°
clockwise, you'll be able to see it clearly. Just like the
sign AD is the representation of the male genitalia (don't
forget the 90° clockwise turning), the sign NIN is the female
representation.
The question why NIN is used for male deities like
Ningirsu/Ninurta (essentially the same deity) or Ningishzidda
is something that scholars don't really know an answer to.
Were they originally conceived as female, or as hemaphrodites?
We don't know.
However, the writing Gishzidda for Ningishzidda is something I
only encountered once in cuneiform writing; I haven't checked
all of the resources, as it's Sunday morning, 9 AM now, and I
haven't been to the library. However, the writing seems to be
a hapax to me. Without looking at the relevant tablets, I
don't really know, but as Ninghishzidda is so well attested,
it is possible that Gishzidda was a shortening of the deity's
name by the scribe.
Another possibility is one that my Sumerian teacher told me.
The cuneiform sign for NIN consists of the above mentioned
sign for female vulva (I'm sorry, my Labat is still under my
friend's thighs, and I don't want to wake her up), and the
sign that later developed into KU etc. (or NÁM... I am drunk
and therefore not sure) The interpretation of my professor is that the sign other than
the vulva represents a cushion - so the pictographic imagery
of the cuneiform sign for NIN would give us a female vulva
(why am I typing "female" all the time, it's not as if there
was another kind of vulva...) and a cushion - probably a
depiction of someone sitting down on a cushion.
When we started talking about the appearance of NIN in names
of deities, he said that there might be/is (don't quote me on
that) evidence for the term NIN referring to an official that
could be of either gender. An honorific title, if you want.
That is the only thing that comes to mind right now.
(Edit: I started writing this when the question got posted,
and forgot about it in the meantime... so please forgive me
any errors or repetitions and stuff like that. I'm drunk,
remember?)
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Post by madness on Sept 16, 2007 3:25:15 GMT -5
nin = SAL.TUG 2gal4 = SAL = "female vulva" nam 2 = TUG 2= "lord" -- Don't forget Nin-urta
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Post by cynsanity on Sept 16, 2007 3:50:27 GMT -5
Or Ningirsu.
Didn't know that Halloran translated TÚG as "lord"... we usually translate it as "garment" (KU being the same as TÚG or DAB5 at that stage in writing).
Edit: Screw people sleeping on my Labat. I want my sign list NOW. *weeps*
*doubts herself*
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Post by madness on Sept 16, 2007 4:26:16 GMT -5
Yeah his lexicon has: túg, tu 9: cloth; cloth garment (side + to encircle) [TUG 2 archaic frequency: 311; concatenates 3 sign variants]. nám[TÚG]: planning ability; destiny; prince, noble (time; high + to be) [NAM 2 archaic frequency: 375]. PSD entry: psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3901.htmlLEX/Old Babylonian/Nippur [[nam 2]] = nam = TUG 2 = ru-bu-u4 OB Aa 68:1.
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Post by amarsin on Sept 16, 2007 10:50:43 GMT -5
In general, we should treat Holloran's stuff with caution. Some of his etymologies look plausible (though I doubt theyre actually correct) but others are simply implausible.
But to the topic of the NIN-sign, its an interesting idea to interpret the grapheme as woman [sitting] on a cloth [=cushion of a throne?], though it would be hard to prove this. But still.
As for the Nin-gišzida/Gišzida, it occurs more than once, but not much more!
And finally, I have no idea why it is that so many male deities begin NIN-. I just thumbed through the RlA looking through the hundred or so NIN- entries, but none offered any explanation. Alas.
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Post by amarsin on Sept 17, 2007 7:48:22 GMT -5
You do see "hypocristic" names in Sumerian Ur III administrative texts. A frequent example is the name arad2/11, which has to be a shortened form of arad2/11-Divine Name. There is also the example of an important Umma official whose name in texts is always Kas (wr. kas4), but whose name on seals is always written en-kas4. It's not clear what the en element is, but it seems to be a part of his "full" name.
As for Holloran, his definitions are more or less correct. It's the etymologies which are problematic. Trying to create an etymology like kug (or ku3), meaning "silver" but also a million other things, from "shining" to "holy" from ku, "to built" plus aga3, "crown" is baseless and is a testament to one's imagination more than anything else.
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Post by madness on Sept 26, 2007 1:01:00 GMT -5
I had never thought of them as fallopian tubes before. This more or less reminds me of the sacred tree.
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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Sept 30, 2007 21:13:41 GMT -5
Awesome contributions all, I really tip my hat to referenceing and the philology going on here, it was thoroughly enjoyed - Im surprised to catch myself taking notes on this thread! (And Nadia..I keep geting distracted by your explanation of NIN)
Anyway now Id really love to see what can be said about the deity himself, so if someone doesnt start a thread on him in the "Mesopotamian Discussion Group".. Then I will ;]
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Post by ninurta2008 on Oct 8, 2009 19:05:39 GMT -5
Maybe it was another way to write nun or prince maybe? Just a suggestion, I am confused at the use of nin- in male names too
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darkl2030
dubĝal (scribes assistent)
Posts: 54
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Post by darkl2030 on Oct 27, 2010 19:16:34 GMT -5
Well, this Giszida fellow occurs in a very unexpected place in the Adapa myth. Both he and Dumuzi, ordinarily netherworld deities, are found guarding the gates of heaven, so maybe the lack of the "Nin" in this case has something to do with this unexpected location for the god. All the "nin" deities seem to be cthonic/agricultural in nature or to have their homes in the netherworld.
Remember also that Sumerian is a genderless language, and all the Nin-names are essentially frozen forms from the very ancient period before the invention of writing, and may not even have originally meant "lord," these being later interpretations/folk etymologies on the part of the sumerians themselves. Same goes for names like Abzu or Suen. Nin "lady" may have originally been simply a homophone that found its expression in writing in the picture of the vulva. I highly doubt that Ninurta/Ningirsu/etc. were hermaphroditical (is that word?) in nature.
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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Oct 27, 2010 21:21:36 GMT -5
Darkl2030: This is a nice line of inquiry in attempting to explain the somewhat unusual instance of Ningishzida's name which is sometimes Gishzida. I may take exception that all Nin deities are agricultural or cthonic, I may have some that aren't, but thats besides the point - I like your reasoning. I am very pleased to see some new philological commentary on this thread, has been a long time - I must admit I'm rather curious to know where your coming from and so I invite you to visit our introductions thread, it's a good way to get some orientation to this somewhat eccentric exchange as well: enenuru.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2&page=8 If you care to review our other Ningishzida thread , it is now extremely lengthy - I think of it as a prime example of how enenuru sometimes works: fueled on this particular thread by the curiousity of our own very eccentric and religiously inclined provoker (Naomi) a number of us with access to Assyriological literature have been encouraged (again and again) to consult more and more studies relating to the god - eventually it was intriguing in its own right, and we moved past a simple or common discussions of the deity and some where on the two year exchange managed to get into the really cutting edge stuff on Ningishzida that Wiggermann has been spreading. The reason why I think it's a good example of how the board works is because the whole thing amounts to interest being converted into Assyriological learning and thats this community in a nut shell. enenuru.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=expel&action=display&thread=100&page=1
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