City Seals (UNU) and early Political Alliances
Jul 22, 2008 12:55:14 GMT -5
Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Jul 22, 2008 12:55:14 GMT -5
Thread Orientation: On this thread we can view and consider Sumerian seals of the non cylinder variety.
Hey enenuru!
On this thread I am taking a very unusual approach as I usually don't present information in the form of a IM conversation.
I have in the past had many good conversations with people that on occasion focus on very interesting ANE stuff - I talk to Madness (more bookwise then myself) , Xuch, Naomi, Anne (on a semi-annual basis) and also Sheshki (or Herbst9) who I talked with this weekend and pasted the conversation below.
On this occasion we were discussing seals, particularly those found in Leon Legrains 1936 work "Archaic seal-impressions from Ur" which is a pdf which can be downloaded for free here. These seals are a fascinating study and preserve much Sumerian art and imagination which is not found else where - they are also quite old and many date earlier then the Ur III period.
About City Seals: We are very interested in those seals which display within them the city seals. These are devices which predate writing, and their function was to represent this or that early city - Eridu, Ur, Larsa, Kesh etc. Scholars tend to see these devices as serving in very early trade relations between the cities - when a merchandise or trade item bore the city seal of Ur or Eridu, it was a mark of authenticity and proved the origin of the item.
The above is from N. Postgate's overview of Mesopotamian civilization. As you can see, he also refers to Legrain 1936 as well, and isolates for us the city seal impressions of the archaic cities. To be clear, from left to right the seals he displays are:
Note: In the below discussion Sheshki and I have at times taken sign 7 as that of Kiš - on reading over again I should point out we are actually dealing with Keš not Kiš. Keš is the as yet unfound city of the mother goddes Ningursaga, and we can refer to the Keš temple hymn for more.
About Geographical Names (UNU): In the below we touch on the subject of geographical names. Geographical names are ways in which the the City names are written in the earliest texts, and indeed in subsequent cuneiform literature. The formula for a geographical name is this:
This stands for - divine name + the sign UNU - . What is interesting to note is that these geographical names, for example UD+UNU (Larsa), or SHESH+UNU (Ur), seem to be direct adaptions of the Early protoliterate City Seals. This becomes clearer still when we note the cuneiform sign UNU, a part of the geographical names, (when flipped vertical) appears to be a direct adaption from the 'base' or 'stand' in the seals. It symbolises the abode of the deity, so UD+UNU, is the home of the Sun god, and the UNU is a part of his temple or ziggurat. And here we see the ePSD entry for unu as dwelling:
"unu [DWELLING] (1511x: Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. unu6; unu2; unu "banquet; dining hall; the most sacred part of a temple; seat, throne; dwelling, domicile, abode; temple" Akk. mākalû; mūšabu; usukku; šubtu"
In the below we worked much of this out. I should mention that while Sheshki (Herbst9) is quite good at reading signs, in cases where we quote full translations we ARE referring to the comments and explanation section in the Legrain pdf.
HERBST9 (8:21:47 PM): c heck401
HERBST9 (8:23:13 PM): the old citynameseals are nice
dvldeedz (8:23:17 PM): oh - see 288 - like a cupid
HERBST9 (8:23:23 PM): maybe we can find traces of the league of kish
HERBST9 (8:23:24 PM):
dvldeedz (8:23:35 PM): wonderful idea checking 401
HERBST9 (8:25:02 PM): see the signs to the very right
HERBST9 (8:25:06 PM): thats kish
dvldeedz (8:25:10 PM): I see 401
HERBST9 (8:26:05 PM): thats the file u sent me
dvldeedz (8:26:06 PM): I hope you are making a little text document with all your little Kish numbers - or should! or have a Kish folder maybe - we can link it to the kings of kish artile
[edit: We at this point believe we are looking at Kish - its Kesh]
HERBST9 (8:26:16 PM): ok
HERBST9 (8:26:19 PM): good idea
HERBST9 (8:26:43 PM): do u remember more about that book
dvldeedz (8:27:07 PM): hm With that document, we may be able to see Kish in places more
HERBST9 (8:27:09 PM): at 400 and 402 are also kishsigns
dvldeedz (8:27:49 PM): I dont see th Kish sign i 401 yet hm
HERBST9 (8:28:39 PM): the very right one
dvldeedz (8:28:56 PM): okay - the one on the right, it has an upward trangle
HERBST9 (8:29:03 PM): yes
dvldeedz (8:29:04 PM): a star or AN
HERBST9 (8:29:08 PM): and a star above it
dvldeedz (8:29:15 PM): and then a diamond shape
HERBST9 (8:29:16 PM): and a ...thing
HERBST9 (8:30:00 PM): and on 400 right to it is eridu
dvldeedz (8:30:28 PM): Is that a sign for Kish? I looks different from the cuneiform for Kish I think. I do see the one for Eridu! But didnt know one for kish maybe
HERBST9 (8:30:31 PM): no
HERBST9 (8:30:32 PM): ur
HERBST9 (8:30:51 PM): check the file i sent
dvldeedz (8:30:55 PM): k
HERBST9 (8:30:56 PM): nmb 7
HERBST9 (8:31:00 PM): kesh
HERBST9 (8:31:05 PM): kish
[Edit: Again, we probably are dealing with Kesh the lost city of Ninhursaga, at the time I didnt remember that. Luckily, this didnt invlaidate all of the conversation however heh]
dvldeedz (8:32:04 PM): oh yes!
dvldeedz (8:32:34 PM): I had almost forgotten about tht book I know it now. And yes I see 7 is Kish - I never memorized that one though
HERBST9 (8:32:39 PM): we need a book that knows more about that
dvldeedz (8:32:59 PM): I can find more about it. ;]
HERBST9 (8:33:00 PM): i think ill save em and separate all signs that look like names
dvldeedz (8:33:45 PM): Good idea. If I look at that book at library tommorow, it wil most likely list other books which say more
HERBST9 (8:33:56 PM): so on 401 from right is kish, ?, ur, der, ?
HERBST9 (8:34:10 PM): lets hope
HERBST9 (8:34:18 PM): thats so exciting
HERBST9 (8:34:22 PM): want to know more
dvldeedz (8:35:08 PM): Yes This suff is intriguing. Among the oldest and most basic Mesopotamian ideograms
HERBST9 (8:35:25 PM): do u think 389 shows a early ziggurat
dvldeedz (8:36:34 PM): It looks like a structure o some sort - I would guess its built out or reeds
dvldeedz (8:36:41 PM): Lets see what commentary says
dvldeedz (8:37:27 PM): "The oldest picture of the Sumerian reed shrine, brick tower with receding stages, and minor
huts and shrines. The whole is engraved with characteristic details which deserve attention.
The bundles of reed wh"
HERBST9 (8:37:47 PM): the brick tower is next to the reed thing
HERBST9 (8:37:57 PM): it also says some more infs about the cityseals
dvldeedz (8:38:19 PM): Does it? still reading
HERBST9 (8:38:39 PM): "Larsa is the city of the rising sun, Der the city of the snake, Uruk the city of the evening star. There is a city of the spread eagle. The great pole is the sign of Eridu, and also,
when surmounted by the sign of the rising sun, of Adab."
HERBST9 (8:39:08 PM): "Pictographic inscription again including abstract and individual pictographs. First the cross sign divided into four quarters round the central circle. Then the UB sign surrounded by five leaves (?). The 'abode' pictograph with a double buckle on one side, perhaps uri, the city of Ur (?). A jar with a lid and a star between, the city of Kesh (?). A twin post with crossbars surmounted by the sign of the rising sun, the city of Adab. A bird and egg (?) below a scorpion (or a star?), a city like Ninni-sh."
HERBST9 (8:39:12 PM): thats for 400
dvldeedz (8:40:03 PM): Fascinating
HERBST9 (8:40:15 PM): yes
HERBST9 (8:40:16 PM): !
dvldeedz (8:40:17 PM): Wish we knew what the pole was, the rising pole for Eridu
HERBST9 (8:40:24 PM): so the second next to kish is adab
HERBST9 (8:42:07 PM): that will be a nice thing to work on....sort it all out
dvldeedz (8:43:06 PM): You had something interesting in one of your mails I was going to bring up here let see
HERBST9 (8:43:12 PM): k
HERBST9 (8:43:18 PM): make ur letter bigger pls
HERBST9 (8:43:35 PM): 409 is also nice
HERBST9 (8:43:39 PM): also some buildings
dvldeedz (8:45:05 PM): Oh by the way - 128 -the one with the disk with rope through it ?
dvldeedz (8:45:36 PM): The commentary there states that these are cylinder seals, which are drilled through and the rope is put in and they are worn as amulets
HERBST9 (8:45:37 PM): yes
HERBST9 (8:45:47 PM): ah cool
HERBST9 (8:46:01 PM): make ur letters bigger pls
dvldeedz (8:46:40 PM): oh right - sry heh
dvldeedz (8:46:46 PM): test
dvldeedz (8:46:53 PM): test
HERBST9 (8:47:06 PM): good
dvldeedz (8:47:07 PM): There ;]
HERBST9 (8:47:14 PM): check 441
HERBST9 (8:47:22 PM): there are some signs
HERBST9 (8:47:40 PM): left column
HERBST9 (8:47:45 PM): first one is na
HERBST9 (8:47:55 PM): next under it could be du
dvldeedz (8:47:59 PM): oh yes!
HERBST9 (8:48:09 PM): next one at top is utu or ud
HERBST9 (8:48:16 PM): next one is gish
HERBST9 (8:48:25 PM): next column
dvldeedz (8:48:33 PM): foot- sun - plant?
HERBST9 (8:48:39 PM): the one that looks like a driller is qa2
HERBST9 (8:49:04 PM): ud gish na du
HERBST9 (8:49:07 PM): maybe
dvldeedz (8:49:21 PM): hmm
HERBST9 (8:49:32 PM): second line first and only one could be ba
HERBST9 (8:49:44 PM): next column
HERBST9 (8:49:46 PM): also ba
HERBST9 (8:50:00 PM): and next and final column is shar i think
dvldeedz (8:50:30 PM): Your good
dvldeedz (8:50:56 PM): And the ox head = GU4?
HERBST9 (8:51:00 PM): it says its ud-gish-na-tum
HERBST9 (8:51:07 PM): so du is also tum sometimes
HERBST9 (8:51:26 PM): "Fragment of inscription. The signs are in cases and in two registers: gud e-ti (1) nun-zag-ga
ud gis-na-tum sar sal-gi sal . ."
HERBST9 (8:51:39 PM): qa2 is ga
HERBST9 (8:51:43 PM): yes
HERBST9 (8:51:49 PM): i was rigth
HERBST9 (8:51:57 PM): i need my second star
dvldeedz (8:52:13 PM): Yes you do! ;]
dvldeedz (8:52:55 PM): So I was going to tell you about the Geographical City names- hard to explain
dvldeedz (8:53:49 PM): Well
dvldeedz (8:53:58 PM): in your mail you were wonding about "
but i forgot to mention that the e2 sign is sometimes also read as lil2 so nibru-ki could also being read as en-lil2-ki...city of enlil...or so...says the not-expert... "
HERBST9 (8:54:16 PM): ah yes
HERBST9 (8:54:18 PM): remember
HERBST9 (8:54:40 PM): enlil is also written en-lil2
dvldeedz (8:54:54 PM): I don't actualy have an answer to that - it is a good question! and good observing. But its reminded me of what Diana katz says on gerographical city names
dvldeedz (8:55:02 PM): Which is a similar topic but not the same
dvldeedz (8:55:24 PM): have to get book out cause its tough
HERBST9 (8:55:58 PM): 512 got a lugal
HERBST9 (8:56:04 PM): what did katz say
HERBST9 (8:56:46 PM): check 518
HERBST9 (8:56:52 PM): there is lugal kish
HERBST9 (8:56:54 PM): ki
[Edit - Note here we have the cuneiform for KISH, and it is Kish this time]
dvldeedz (8:58:01 PM): Nice - a royal seal?
HERBST9 (8:59:09 PM): "Gilgamish and the bull between two lions rampant, one of which bites him in the shoulder. On either side of the group Enkidu and the hunter-hero armed with a dagger. The latter wears a long beard and a head-dress in the Kish style. Below the cartouche a human Swastika is made of four runners with long hair and beard, armed with dagger and catching each other's foot. A Swastika of four crossed lions is found on the royal seal of a-gig-hu-dim (cf. Ur Excavations, vol. ii, p. 340, No. 54). This is the seal of mes-an-ni-pad-da lugal kips dam-nu-gig (cf. Ur Excavations, vol. ii, p. 352, No. 214).
U. 13607. SIS I. P1. 57. (C3 s //,/ 6, &"
HERBST9 (8:59:41 PM): yes
HERBST9 (8:59:48 PM): !measnipadda
HERBST9 (8:59:54 PM): jippie
HERBST9 (9:00:00 PM): another king for the list
dvldeedz (9:00:03 PM): Hah - I had just seen that Gilgamesh entry too
dvldeedz (9:00:21 PM): did you type that name correcty?
dvldeedz (9:00:30 PM): because it almost looks like the ruler of Ur
HERBST9 (9:00:45 PM): This is the seal of mes-an-ni-pad-da lugal kips dam-nu-gig
dvldeedz (9:00:48 PM): the one who defeated Agga, and ended the dynasty of Kish
dvldeedz (9:01:10 PM): yes! very intersting he is a king of importance
HERBST9 (9:01:15 PM): indeed
HERBST9 (9:01:29 PM): could add it to the kisharticle
dvldeedz (9:01:57 PM): And we have his seal - noteworrhty. Good idea! He is the first king outside the Kish dynasty to take the standard of th ing of Kish
HERBST9 (9:02:40 PM): 538. Torsades and scorpions below the cartouche inscribed as follows: dnannar (?) igi-mu denlil (?)
ne(r)-gal, 'Nannar is before me, Enlil is (my) great strength'.
dvldeedz (9:02:47 PM): This seal is full of history therefore
HERBST9 (9:02:50 PM): yes
dvldeedz (9:04:32 PM): 518 is th perfect seal for the Kings of Kish thread- good finding
HERBST9 (9:07:54 PM): just saved it
HERBST9 (9:08:02 PM): just in case we need it somehow
dvldeedz (9:08:20 PM): Good well - we need it at the bottom on the Kish article its more then pefect
HERBST9 (9:09:02 PM): in progress
dvldeedz (9:09:18 PM): caption may read "The seal of Mes-an-pa-da, who ended the dynasty of Kish. Note the king adopts the title "king of kish" (highlight)
dvldeedz (9:09:35 PM): Perhaps you might highlight as well the king of kish signs?
dvldeedz (9:10:03 PM): k.. i am typing up Katz comments
HERBST9 (9:10:21 PM): k
dvldeedz (9:15:48 PM): Lemme know when your finished there and Ill start this topic ;]
HERBST9 (9:17:01 PM): i prepare sumptin for the kish article
dvldeedz (9:17:11 PM): k
HERBST9 (9:30:50 PM): done
dvldeedz (9:38:19 PM): Ok so next
HERBST9 (9:38:36 PM): yes
HERBST9 (9:38:38 PM): time runs
dvldeedz (9:38:43 PM): talking about "geographical names". In Kats book on the netherworld
HERBST9 (9:39:11 PM): yes
dvldeedz (9:39:15 PM): She speaks bout Nergal - and the origin of the name of Nergal - evidently in earliest times he was called Kish
dvldeedz (9:39:24 PM): not to be confused with the city of Kish
dvldeedz (9:41:32 PM): So Nergal was named Kish - not the city. Kish jsut meant "bull". Katz talks about his city it was called "kish.unu" - again this is not the Kish we know however
HERBST9 (9:41:36 PM): and maybe there was a temple for kish/nergal and they founded a city there?
HERBST9 (9:42:07 PM): aha
dvldeedz (9:42:18 PM): Indeed she says that NErgal's earlist city was Kish.unu - before Kutha
HERBST9 (9:42:38 PM): kutha is kish?
HERBST9 (9:42:44 PM): #or another city
dvldeedz (9:43:08 PM): Kutha is another city- The city we know of as kish is not related to this discussion umhm
HERBST9 (9:43:27 PM): ok
dvldeedz (9:43:33 PM): So nergal is kish - and his city is kish unu - neither is the city we now know as kish
HERBST9 (9:43:41 PM): k
dvldeedz (9:44:12 PM): Whats interesting is that Katz explains that other Sumerian cities- in earliest time- were named in the SAME way - the divine name + unu
dvldeedz (9:44:16 PM): or DN+unu
dvldeedz (9:44:50 PM): So we have SheSh+unu - residene of Nanna
dvldeedz (9:45:19 PM): and UD-Unu- residence of Utu (Larsa)
dvldeedz (9:45:36 PM): UNU = residence
HERBST9 (9:46:25 PM): ah
dvldeedz (9:46:27 PM): These are called the "gerographic names"
HERBST9 (9:46:28 PM): interesting
dvldeedz (9:46:35 PM): She says "these
dvldeedz (9:47:21 PM): "This construction is very well attested in Sumer since it charcterises the writing of vry important religious centes"
dvldeedz (9:47:59 PM): So it reminds me of the city seals - like utu for example is a UD sign on top of a structure
dvldeedz (9:48:14 PM): perhaps this structure bacame UNU in cuneiform
HERBST9 (9:48:15 PM): yes
HERBST9 (9:48:27 PM): maybe
HERBST9 (9:48:36 PM): have to research that
HERBST9 (9:48:41 PM): i only know unug
HERBST9 (9:49:11 PM): etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/png/AB_GUNU.png
dvldeedz (9:49:57 PM): hmmm
HERBST9 (9:50:20 PM): psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/nepsd-frame.html
HERBST9 (9:50:25 PM): check for unu there
HERBST9 (9:50:32 PM): it says dwelling
dvldeedz (9:51:16 PM): Yes I bet you that turned up right is what is siting in out city seals
HERBST9 (9:51:18 PM): if u turn this sign to mthe right it fits
dvldeedz (9:51:22 PM): yep
dvldeedz (9:51:26 PM): Fascinating
HERBST9 (9:51:27 PM): he
HERBST9 (9:51:31 PM): indeed
HERBST9 (9:52:07 PM): so know we can kinda translate thos sealssigns
HERBST9 (9:52:27 PM): check the article
HERBST9 (9:52:30 PM): addition made
dvldeedz (9:52:30 PM): Yes for sure. Someone ought to be giving us some honary degrees. Lamers.
dvldeedz (9:53:34 PM): In earliest times and even laters important religous centers continued to be written DN+UNU - just as they had been in the archaic seals before writting really developed. Tradition
HERBST9 (9:53:47 PM): if u take a closer look to the kish sign u can see signs
HERBST9 (9:54:00 PM): he
HERBST9 (9:54:26 PM): the one above looks like u
HERBST9 (9:54:30 PM): then an
HERBST9 (9:55:39 PM): and inside it looks like
HERBST9 (9:55:48 PM): just have to check the list
HERBST9 (9:55:52 PM): have seen it before
dvldeedz (9:55:54 PM): k
HERBST9 (9:57:31 PM): could be sha...
HERBST9 (9:58:03 PM): or gu4
dvldeedz (9:58:56 PM): Interesting !
HERBST9 (9:59:04 PM): i thought it would be am...bu no
HERBST9 (9:59:22 PM): or maybe its sumptin else
dvldeedz (9:59:31 PM): hum. Well, I dont yet have a idea of what the Kish sign could b however
HERBST9 (9:59:34 PM): at 401 u can see it
dvldeedz (10:00:38 PM): The kish sign does not follow the patten of the DN+UNU, of the geograpgical name = city seal - because they is no base, no UNU here really is there
HERBST9 (10:00:41 PM): 410 is a nice example for ud unu
HERBST9 (10:00:51 PM): indeed
HERBST9 (10:00:55 PM): also eridu
dvldeedz (10:01:21 PM): But if we know the god of Kish perhaps it would get us farther with the kish cit seal - perhaps not
HERBST9 (10:01:35 PM): also 412,414,415
HERBST9 (10:01:45 PM): its a chance
HERBST9 (10:02:19 PM): that unu at 415 and 415 looking like towers in water to me
HERBST9 (10:03:02 PM): also on the next page
HERBST9 (10:03:08 PM): here it looks more like water
dvldeedz (10:10:31 PM): Im not sure - about the kish seal here. What is water like about it? ;p
HERBST9 (10:11:05 PM): i mean the unu signs
HERBST9 (10:11:21 PM): that unu at 415 and 415 looking like towers in water to me
HERBST9: also on the next page
HERBST9: here it looks more like water
dvldeedz (10:11:33 PM): k
dvldeedz (10:12:13 PM): oh it see!
dvldeedz (10:12:35 PM): Yes the lines at the bottom of the Unu - at the very base - seem to be wavy, like in water
HERBST9 (10:13:46 PM): yes
dvldeedz (10:13:49 PM): you see the designs beside the UNU's - on 416 and 417
dvldeedz (10:14:11 PM): They have wavy lines like water to - if we figure out wht those designs are, it may tell us if they have to do with water
HERBST9 (10:14:59 PM): "Pictographic inscription. The edinnu. The signs of Ur (?), Uruk (?), the spread eagle, the
rising sun of Adab, jars, animal head (?)."
dvldeedz (10:15:19 PM): edinnu?
HERBST9 (10:15:23 PM): "A pictographic fragment. We find here the first traces of a new composite sign, clearer on
other impressions (cf. Nos. 459, 461), often associated with the Swastika and which, for convenience sake,'we will call the edinnu, the fertile plain. It is essentially a field enclosed right
and left by semicircular lines and divided by vertical and zigzag lines into compartments which form two horns at the top and two at the bottom, or even more. All the free space within is
filled with dentils-the gunu system of the scribes-which means solid ground."
HERBST9 (10:15:30 PM): thats for 412
dvldeedz (10:15:39 PM): ahhhhh
HERBST9 (10:15:44 PM): yes
HERBST9 (10:15:48 PM): books are fun
dvldeedz (10:15:53 PM): haha - As we were suspecting - edinnu = the fertile plain?
dvldeedz (10:16:04 PM): Theres on the fertiles plain, there are canals, and water
HERBST9 (10:16:10 PM): yes
HERBST9 (10:16:48 PM): so maybe those temples were sourrounded by water
dvldeedz (10:16:53 PM): Therefore the Unu were included with base in water - in fresh water, the abzu or the fresh water
HERBST9 (10:17:06 PM): and naked sumerian ladys
dvldeedz (10:17:45 PM): hhehe.
UNU
Hey enenuru!
On this thread I am taking a very unusual approach as I usually don't present information in the form of a IM conversation.
I have in the past had many good conversations with people that on occasion focus on very interesting ANE stuff - I talk to Madness (more bookwise then myself) , Xuch, Naomi, Anne (on a semi-annual basis) and also Sheshki (or Herbst9) who I talked with this weekend and pasted the conversation below.
On this occasion we were discussing seals, particularly those found in Leon Legrains 1936 work "Archaic seal-impressions from Ur" which is a pdf which can be downloaded for free here. These seals are a fascinating study and preserve much Sumerian art and imagination which is not found else where - they are also quite old and many date earlier then the Ur III period.
About City Seals: We are very interested in those seals which display within them the city seals. These are devices which predate writing, and their function was to represent this or that early city - Eridu, Ur, Larsa, Kesh etc. Scholars tend to see these devices as serving in very early trade relations between the cities - when a merchandise or trade item bore the city seal of Ur or Eridu, it was a mark of authenticity and proved the origin of the item.
The above is from N. Postgate's overview of Mesopotamian civilization. As you can see, he also refers to Legrain 1936 as well, and isolates for us the city seal impressions of the archaic cities. To be clear, from left to right the seals he displays are:
1. Eridu? 2. Larsa 3. snake? 4. bird? 5. Ur 6. Der? 7. Keš
Note: In the below discussion Sheshki and I have at times taken sign 7 as that of Kiš - on reading over again I should point out we are actually dealing with Keš not Kiš. Keš is the as yet unfound city of the mother goddes Ningursaga, and we can refer to the Keš temple hymn for more.
About Geographical Names (UNU): In the below we touch on the subject of geographical names. Geographical names are ways in which the the City names are written in the earliest texts, and indeed in subsequent cuneiform literature. The formula for a geographical name is this:
DN+UNU
This stands for - divine name + the sign UNU - . What is interesting to note is that these geographical names, for example UD+UNU (Larsa), or SHESH+UNU (Ur), seem to be direct adaptions of the Early protoliterate City Seals. This becomes clearer still when we note the cuneiform sign UNU, a part of the geographical names, (when flipped vertical) appears to be a direct adaption from the 'base' or 'stand' in the seals. It symbolises the abode of the deity, so UD+UNU, is the home of the Sun god, and the UNU is a part of his temple or ziggurat. And here we see the ePSD entry for unu as dwelling:
"unu [DWELLING] (1511x: Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. unu6; unu2; unu "banquet; dining hall; the most sacred part of a temple; seat, throne; dwelling, domicile, abode; temple" Akk. mākalû; mūšabu; usukku; šubtu"
In the below we worked much of this out. I should mention that while Sheshki (Herbst9) is quite good at reading signs, in cases where we quote full translations we ARE referring to the comments and explanation section in the Legrain pdf.
HERBST9 (8:21:47 PM): c heck401
HERBST9 (8:23:13 PM): the old citynameseals are nice
dvldeedz (8:23:17 PM): oh - see 288 - like a cupid
HERBST9 (8:23:23 PM): maybe we can find traces of the league of kish
HERBST9 (8:23:24 PM):
dvldeedz (8:23:35 PM): wonderful idea checking 401
HERBST9 (8:25:02 PM): see the signs to the very right
HERBST9 (8:25:06 PM): thats kish
dvldeedz (8:25:10 PM): I see 401
HERBST9 (8:26:05 PM): thats the file u sent me
dvldeedz (8:26:06 PM): I hope you are making a little text document with all your little Kish numbers - or should! or have a Kish folder maybe - we can link it to the kings of kish artile
[edit: We at this point believe we are looking at Kish - its Kesh]
HERBST9 (8:26:16 PM): ok
HERBST9 (8:26:19 PM): good idea
HERBST9 (8:26:43 PM): do u remember more about that book
dvldeedz (8:27:07 PM): hm With that document, we may be able to see Kish in places more
HERBST9 (8:27:09 PM): at 400 and 402 are also kishsigns
dvldeedz (8:27:49 PM): I dont see th Kish sign i 401 yet hm
HERBST9 (8:28:39 PM): the very right one
dvldeedz (8:28:56 PM): okay - the one on the right, it has an upward trangle
HERBST9 (8:29:03 PM): yes
dvldeedz (8:29:04 PM): a star or AN
HERBST9 (8:29:08 PM): and a star above it
dvldeedz (8:29:15 PM): and then a diamond shape
HERBST9 (8:29:16 PM): and a ...thing
HERBST9 (8:30:00 PM): and on 400 right to it is eridu
dvldeedz (8:30:28 PM): Is that a sign for Kish? I looks different from the cuneiform for Kish I think. I do see the one for Eridu! But didnt know one for kish maybe
HERBST9 (8:30:31 PM): no
HERBST9 (8:30:32 PM): ur
HERBST9 (8:30:51 PM): check the file i sent
dvldeedz (8:30:55 PM): k
HERBST9 (8:30:56 PM): nmb 7
HERBST9 (8:31:00 PM): kesh
HERBST9 (8:31:05 PM): kish
[Edit: Again, we probably are dealing with Kesh the lost city of Ninhursaga, at the time I didnt remember that. Luckily, this didnt invlaidate all of the conversation however heh]
dvldeedz (8:32:04 PM): oh yes!
dvldeedz (8:32:34 PM): I had almost forgotten about tht book I know it now. And yes I see 7 is Kish - I never memorized that one though
HERBST9 (8:32:39 PM): we need a book that knows more about that
dvldeedz (8:32:59 PM): I can find more about it. ;]
HERBST9 (8:33:00 PM): i think ill save em and separate all signs that look like names
dvldeedz (8:33:45 PM): Good idea. If I look at that book at library tommorow, it wil most likely list other books which say more
HERBST9 (8:33:56 PM): so on 401 from right is kish, ?, ur, der, ?
HERBST9 (8:34:10 PM): lets hope
HERBST9 (8:34:18 PM): thats so exciting
HERBST9 (8:34:22 PM): want to know more
dvldeedz (8:35:08 PM): Yes This suff is intriguing. Among the oldest and most basic Mesopotamian ideograms
HERBST9 (8:35:25 PM): do u think 389 shows a early ziggurat
dvldeedz (8:36:34 PM): It looks like a structure o some sort - I would guess its built out or reeds
dvldeedz (8:36:41 PM): Lets see what commentary says
dvldeedz (8:37:27 PM): "The oldest picture of the Sumerian reed shrine, brick tower with receding stages, and minor
huts and shrines. The whole is engraved with characteristic details which deserve attention.
The bundles of reed wh"
HERBST9 (8:37:47 PM): the brick tower is next to the reed thing
HERBST9 (8:37:57 PM): it also says some more infs about the cityseals
dvldeedz (8:38:19 PM): Does it? still reading
HERBST9 (8:38:39 PM): "Larsa is the city of the rising sun, Der the city of the snake, Uruk the city of the evening star. There is a city of the spread eagle. The great pole is the sign of Eridu, and also,
when surmounted by the sign of the rising sun, of Adab."
HERBST9 (8:39:08 PM): "Pictographic inscription again including abstract and individual pictographs. First the cross sign divided into four quarters round the central circle. Then the UB sign surrounded by five leaves (?). The 'abode' pictograph with a double buckle on one side, perhaps uri, the city of Ur (?). A jar with a lid and a star between, the city of Kesh (?). A twin post with crossbars surmounted by the sign of the rising sun, the city of Adab. A bird and egg (?) below a scorpion (or a star?), a city like Ninni-sh."
HERBST9 (8:39:12 PM): thats for 400
dvldeedz (8:40:03 PM): Fascinating
HERBST9 (8:40:15 PM): yes
HERBST9 (8:40:16 PM): !
dvldeedz (8:40:17 PM): Wish we knew what the pole was, the rising pole for Eridu
HERBST9 (8:40:24 PM): so the second next to kish is adab
HERBST9 (8:42:07 PM): that will be a nice thing to work on....sort it all out
dvldeedz (8:43:06 PM): You had something interesting in one of your mails I was going to bring up here let see
HERBST9 (8:43:12 PM): k
HERBST9 (8:43:18 PM): make ur letter bigger pls
HERBST9 (8:43:35 PM): 409 is also nice
HERBST9 (8:43:39 PM): also some buildings
dvldeedz (8:45:05 PM): Oh by the way - 128 -the one with the disk with rope through it ?
dvldeedz (8:45:36 PM): The commentary there states that these are cylinder seals, which are drilled through and the rope is put in and they are worn as amulets
HERBST9 (8:45:37 PM): yes
HERBST9 (8:45:47 PM): ah cool
HERBST9 (8:46:01 PM): make ur letters bigger pls
dvldeedz (8:46:40 PM): oh right - sry heh
dvldeedz (8:46:46 PM): test
dvldeedz (8:46:53 PM): test
HERBST9 (8:47:06 PM): good
dvldeedz (8:47:07 PM): There ;]
HERBST9 (8:47:14 PM): check 441
HERBST9 (8:47:22 PM): there are some signs
HERBST9 (8:47:40 PM): left column
HERBST9 (8:47:45 PM): first one is na
HERBST9 (8:47:55 PM): next under it could be du
dvldeedz (8:47:59 PM): oh yes!
HERBST9 (8:48:09 PM): next one at top is utu or ud
HERBST9 (8:48:16 PM): next one is gish
HERBST9 (8:48:25 PM): next column
dvldeedz (8:48:33 PM): foot- sun - plant?
HERBST9 (8:48:39 PM): the one that looks like a driller is qa2
HERBST9 (8:49:04 PM): ud gish na du
HERBST9 (8:49:07 PM): maybe
dvldeedz (8:49:21 PM): hmm
HERBST9 (8:49:32 PM): second line first and only one could be ba
HERBST9 (8:49:44 PM): next column
HERBST9 (8:49:46 PM): also ba
HERBST9 (8:50:00 PM): and next and final column is shar i think
dvldeedz (8:50:30 PM): Your good
dvldeedz (8:50:56 PM): And the ox head = GU4?
HERBST9 (8:51:00 PM): it says its ud-gish-na-tum
HERBST9 (8:51:07 PM): so du is also tum sometimes
HERBST9 (8:51:26 PM): "Fragment of inscription. The signs are in cases and in two registers: gud e-ti (1) nun-zag-ga
ud gis-na-tum sar sal-gi sal . ."
HERBST9 (8:51:39 PM): qa2 is ga
HERBST9 (8:51:43 PM): yes
HERBST9 (8:51:49 PM): i was rigth
HERBST9 (8:51:57 PM): i need my second star
dvldeedz (8:52:13 PM): Yes you do! ;]
dvldeedz (8:52:55 PM): So I was going to tell you about the Geographical City names- hard to explain
dvldeedz (8:53:49 PM): Well
dvldeedz (8:53:58 PM): in your mail you were wonding about "
but i forgot to mention that the e2 sign is sometimes also read as lil2 so nibru-ki could also being read as en-lil2-ki...city of enlil...or so...says the not-expert... "
HERBST9 (8:54:16 PM): ah yes
HERBST9 (8:54:18 PM): remember
HERBST9 (8:54:40 PM): enlil is also written en-lil2
dvldeedz (8:54:54 PM): I don't actualy have an answer to that - it is a good question! and good observing. But its reminded me of what Diana katz says on gerographical city names
dvldeedz (8:55:02 PM): Which is a similar topic but not the same
dvldeedz (8:55:24 PM): have to get book out cause its tough
HERBST9 (8:55:58 PM): 512 got a lugal
HERBST9 (8:56:04 PM): what did katz say
HERBST9 (8:56:46 PM): check 518
HERBST9 (8:56:52 PM): there is lugal kish
HERBST9 (8:56:54 PM): ki
[Edit - Note here we have the cuneiform for KISH, and it is Kish this time]
dvldeedz (8:58:01 PM): Nice - a royal seal?
HERBST9 (8:59:09 PM): "Gilgamish and the bull between two lions rampant, one of which bites him in the shoulder. On either side of the group Enkidu and the hunter-hero armed with a dagger. The latter wears a long beard and a head-dress in the Kish style. Below the cartouche a human Swastika is made of four runners with long hair and beard, armed with dagger and catching each other's foot. A Swastika of four crossed lions is found on the royal seal of a-gig-hu-dim (cf. Ur Excavations, vol. ii, p. 340, No. 54). This is the seal of mes-an-ni-pad-da lugal kips dam-nu-gig (cf. Ur Excavations, vol. ii, p. 352, No. 214).
U. 13607. SIS I. P1. 57. (C3 s //,/ 6, &"
HERBST9 (8:59:41 PM): yes
HERBST9 (8:59:48 PM): !measnipadda
HERBST9 (8:59:54 PM): jippie
HERBST9 (9:00:00 PM): another king for the list
dvldeedz (9:00:03 PM): Hah - I had just seen that Gilgamesh entry too
dvldeedz (9:00:21 PM): did you type that name correcty?
dvldeedz (9:00:30 PM): because it almost looks like the ruler of Ur
HERBST9 (9:00:45 PM): This is the seal of mes-an-ni-pad-da lugal kips dam-nu-gig
dvldeedz (9:00:48 PM): the one who defeated Agga, and ended the dynasty of Kish
dvldeedz (9:01:10 PM): yes! very intersting he is a king of importance
HERBST9 (9:01:15 PM): indeed
HERBST9 (9:01:29 PM): could add it to the kisharticle
dvldeedz (9:01:57 PM): And we have his seal - noteworrhty. Good idea! He is the first king outside the Kish dynasty to take the standard of th ing of Kish
HERBST9 (9:02:40 PM): 538. Torsades and scorpions below the cartouche inscribed as follows: dnannar (?) igi-mu denlil (?)
ne(r)-gal, 'Nannar is before me, Enlil is (my) great strength'.
dvldeedz (9:02:47 PM): This seal is full of history therefore
HERBST9 (9:02:50 PM): yes
dvldeedz (9:04:32 PM): 518 is th perfect seal for the Kings of Kish thread- good finding
HERBST9 (9:07:54 PM): just saved it
HERBST9 (9:08:02 PM): just in case we need it somehow
dvldeedz (9:08:20 PM): Good well - we need it at the bottom on the Kish article its more then pefect
HERBST9 (9:09:02 PM): in progress
dvldeedz (9:09:18 PM): caption may read "The seal of Mes-an-pa-da, who ended the dynasty of Kish. Note the king adopts the title "king of kish" (highlight)
dvldeedz (9:09:35 PM): Perhaps you might highlight as well the king of kish signs?
dvldeedz (9:10:03 PM): k.. i am typing up Katz comments
HERBST9 (9:10:21 PM): k
dvldeedz (9:15:48 PM): Lemme know when your finished there and Ill start this topic ;]
HERBST9 (9:17:01 PM): i prepare sumptin for the kish article
dvldeedz (9:17:11 PM): k
HERBST9 (9:30:50 PM): done
dvldeedz (9:38:19 PM): Ok so next
HERBST9 (9:38:36 PM): yes
HERBST9 (9:38:38 PM): time runs
dvldeedz (9:38:43 PM): talking about "geographical names". In Kats book on the netherworld
HERBST9 (9:39:11 PM): yes
dvldeedz (9:39:15 PM): She speaks bout Nergal - and the origin of the name of Nergal - evidently in earliest times he was called Kish
dvldeedz (9:39:24 PM): not to be confused with the city of Kish
dvldeedz (9:41:32 PM): So Nergal was named Kish - not the city. Kish jsut meant "bull". Katz talks about his city it was called "kish.unu" - again this is not the Kish we know however
HERBST9 (9:41:36 PM): and maybe there was a temple for kish/nergal and they founded a city there?
HERBST9 (9:42:07 PM): aha
dvldeedz (9:42:18 PM): Indeed she says that NErgal's earlist city was Kish.unu - before Kutha
HERBST9 (9:42:38 PM): kutha is kish?
HERBST9 (9:42:44 PM): #or another city
dvldeedz (9:43:08 PM): Kutha is another city- The city we know of as kish is not related to this discussion umhm
HERBST9 (9:43:27 PM): ok
dvldeedz (9:43:33 PM): So nergal is kish - and his city is kish unu - neither is the city we now know as kish
HERBST9 (9:43:41 PM): k
dvldeedz (9:44:12 PM): Whats interesting is that Katz explains that other Sumerian cities- in earliest time- were named in the SAME way - the divine name + unu
dvldeedz (9:44:16 PM): or DN+unu
dvldeedz (9:44:50 PM): So we have SheSh+unu - residene of Nanna
dvldeedz (9:45:19 PM): and UD-Unu- residence of Utu (Larsa)
dvldeedz (9:45:36 PM): UNU = residence
HERBST9 (9:46:25 PM): ah
dvldeedz (9:46:27 PM): These are called the "gerographic names"
HERBST9 (9:46:28 PM): interesting
dvldeedz (9:46:35 PM): She says "these
dvldeedz (9:47:21 PM): "This construction is very well attested in Sumer since it charcterises the writing of vry important religious centes"
dvldeedz (9:47:59 PM): So it reminds me of the city seals - like utu for example is a UD sign on top of a structure
dvldeedz (9:48:14 PM): perhaps this structure bacame UNU in cuneiform
HERBST9 (9:48:15 PM): yes
HERBST9 (9:48:27 PM): maybe
HERBST9 (9:48:36 PM): have to research that
HERBST9 (9:48:41 PM): i only know unug
HERBST9 (9:49:11 PM): etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/png/AB_GUNU.png
dvldeedz (9:49:57 PM): hmmm
HERBST9 (9:50:20 PM): psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/nepsd-frame.html
HERBST9 (9:50:25 PM): check for unu there
HERBST9 (9:50:32 PM): it says dwelling
dvldeedz (9:51:16 PM): Yes I bet you that turned up right is what is siting in out city seals
HERBST9 (9:51:18 PM): if u turn this sign to mthe right it fits
dvldeedz (9:51:22 PM): yep
dvldeedz (9:51:26 PM): Fascinating
HERBST9 (9:51:27 PM): he
HERBST9 (9:51:31 PM): indeed
HERBST9 (9:52:07 PM): so know we can kinda translate thos sealssigns
HERBST9 (9:52:27 PM): check the article
HERBST9 (9:52:30 PM): addition made
dvldeedz (9:52:30 PM): Yes for sure. Someone ought to be giving us some honary degrees. Lamers.
dvldeedz (9:53:34 PM): In earliest times and even laters important religous centers continued to be written DN+UNU - just as they had been in the archaic seals before writting really developed. Tradition
HERBST9 (9:53:47 PM): if u take a closer look to the kish sign u can see signs
HERBST9 (9:54:00 PM): he
HERBST9 (9:54:26 PM): the one above looks like u
HERBST9 (9:54:30 PM): then an
HERBST9 (9:55:39 PM): and inside it looks like
HERBST9 (9:55:48 PM): just have to check the list
HERBST9 (9:55:52 PM): have seen it before
dvldeedz (9:55:54 PM): k
HERBST9 (9:57:31 PM): could be sha...
HERBST9 (9:58:03 PM): or gu4
dvldeedz (9:58:56 PM): Interesting !
HERBST9 (9:59:04 PM): i thought it would be am...bu no
HERBST9 (9:59:22 PM): or maybe its sumptin else
dvldeedz (9:59:31 PM): hum. Well, I dont yet have a idea of what the Kish sign could b however
HERBST9 (9:59:34 PM): at 401 u can see it
dvldeedz (10:00:38 PM): The kish sign does not follow the patten of the DN+UNU, of the geograpgical name = city seal - because they is no base, no UNU here really is there
HERBST9 (10:00:41 PM): 410 is a nice example for ud unu
HERBST9 (10:00:51 PM): indeed
HERBST9 (10:00:55 PM): also eridu
dvldeedz (10:01:21 PM): But if we know the god of Kish perhaps it would get us farther with the kish cit seal - perhaps not
HERBST9 (10:01:35 PM): also 412,414,415
HERBST9 (10:01:45 PM): its a chance
HERBST9 (10:02:19 PM): that unu at 415 and 415 looking like towers in water to me
HERBST9 (10:03:02 PM): also on the next page
HERBST9 (10:03:08 PM): here it looks more like water
dvldeedz (10:10:31 PM): Im not sure - about the kish seal here. What is water like about it? ;p
HERBST9 (10:11:05 PM): i mean the unu signs
HERBST9 (10:11:21 PM): that unu at 415 and 415 looking like towers in water to me
HERBST9: also on the next page
HERBST9: here it looks more like water
dvldeedz (10:11:33 PM): k
dvldeedz (10:12:13 PM): oh it see!
dvldeedz (10:12:35 PM): Yes the lines at the bottom of the Unu - at the very base - seem to be wavy, like in water
HERBST9 (10:13:46 PM): yes
dvldeedz (10:13:49 PM): you see the designs beside the UNU's - on 416 and 417
dvldeedz (10:14:11 PM): They have wavy lines like water to - if we figure out wht those designs are, it may tell us if they have to do with water
HERBST9 (10:14:59 PM): "Pictographic inscription. The edinnu. The signs of Ur (?), Uruk (?), the spread eagle, the
rising sun of Adab, jars, animal head (?)."
dvldeedz (10:15:19 PM): edinnu?
HERBST9 (10:15:23 PM): "A pictographic fragment. We find here the first traces of a new composite sign, clearer on
other impressions (cf. Nos. 459, 461), often associated with the Swastika and which, for convenience sake,'we will call the edinnu, the fertile plain. It is essentially a field enclosed right
and left by semicircular lines and divided by vertical and zigzag lines into compartments which form two horns at the top and two at the bottom, or even more. All the free space within is
filled with dentils-the gunu system of the scribes-which means solid ground."
HERBST9 (10:15:30 PM): thats for 412
dvldeedz (10:15:39 PM): ahhhhh
HERBST9 (10:15:44 PM): yes
HERBST9 (10:15:48 PM): books are fun
dvldeedz (10:15:53 PM): haha - As we were suspecting - edinnu = the fertile plain?
dvldeedz (10:16:04 PM): Theres on the fertiles plain, there are canals, and water
HERBST9 (10:16:10 PM): yes
HERBST9 (10:16:48 PM): so maybe those temples were sourrounded by water
dvldeedz (10:16:53 PM): Therefore the Unu were included with base in water - in fresh water, the abzu or the fresh water
HERBST9 (10:17:06 PM): and naked sumerian ladys
dvldeedz (10:17:45 PM): hhehe.
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ban ban ... i know...
