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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on May 11, 2011 11:33:10 GMT -5
Lilitudemon:
This is not a forum for 'goddess worship' as it were. While I accept religious expressions, I insist on the ability to objectively value the texts. That you see Inanna as an empowering symbol for women suggests a feminist bias and an obsticle in treating this material objectively and dispassionately - if I had any doubt of that, your response to Enkur's reply post #21 would remove that doubt. Rather than admit this rebuttal, a text clearly indicating that Inanna is capable of "spoiled brat" behavior, you would infer that 'all the gods' are brats instead.
Attempting to define Inanna's character is probably a waste of time. See reply #2 and #3 of this thread. Directly challenging another members input on the grounds of "I think" or "I don't think" is unadvisable. Presenting texts that contradict while devaluing texts which do not contradict, is not a good way to proceed here. If you should be so bold as to contradict the input of one of our members (especially one with a university training in this field) it should be done with several quotations from scholarly articles on the subject.
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Post by lilitudemon on May 11, 2011 15:54:56 GMT -5
Lilitudemon: This is not a forum for 'goddess worship' as it were. While I accept religious expressions, I insist on the ability to objectively value the texts. That you see Inanna as an empowering symbol for women suggests a feminist bias and an obsticle in treating this material objectively and dispassionately - if I had any doubt of that, your response to Enkur's reply post #21 would remove that doubt. Rather than admit this rebuttal, a text clearly indicating that Inanna is capable of "spoiled brat" behavior, you would infer that 'all the gods' are brats instead. Perspective vs perspective. I never said this is what scholars think of Inanna. I find Inanna's "spoiled brat" think to be biased (as well as my own view) and I find it to be inaccurate to her character. Hence me mentioning "she of 1000 faces". I cited texts that show a countering view to being a spoiled brat. I was simply offering my opinion on the subject whit list the countering texts that do not show her as a spoiled brat and disagreeing with that assumption. You can disagree with me about her being a symbol (note the word symbol) of empowerment as much as I disagree with the notion you agree with, that she is a spoiled brat. Either way, such petty disagreements are really moot concerning anthropology. I also feel there was no reason for you to address this or bring it up. No one to me appeared to be upset by anything, and I was enjoying the discussion. For the record, I am not A) A worshiper of Inanna or any deity from Mesopotamia B) A goddess worshiper i.e. Neopagan. C) monotheistic. I also do not talk to anybody from those communities. I simply came to this interpretation by myself. If you disagree that's fine as I know the Sumerians didn't have woman's rights. I am not stupid, this is just my modern take on her myths. [If we take modern interpretations out of Mesopotamian studies, then we should ignore the Greek's views on Ishtar as well as it is wildly different in a lot of ways from the Babylonians.] There's nothing wrong with that. Again, not claiming the Sumerians themselves believed this, I would be committing a logical fallacy if I was. Which I did do but you should probably also tell other people. If someone says "Inanna is a spoiled brat and I base my view on texts" then why is my view any worse? I cited text. That was in my replies. I debate what I see fit, no one was angry or upset. If someone is going to school for it more power to them. But I am allowed to also have my own interpretation of the texts, I don't claim them to be historically accurate. I tend to agree with the majority of academics, but I also have my own views. Is this a forum where we aren't allowed to have our own opinions about the texts and archeology? If so, I never heard about this when I joined.
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Post by lilitudemon on May 11, 2011 16:13:02 GMT -5
I'm the least who would ignore her warrior aspect. The deities are of paradoxical nature - they could manifest simultaneously things of opposing natures like goodevil, lovehate, feardesire, sexdeath, weeplaughter etc. but rarely the one thing only as humans would prefer - especially Inanna - and that's why they are deities after all. That's why we speak of divine madness - an ecstasy so difficult for humans to understand. Even when angry and furious Inanna never loses her feminine charm. I've tried to express it via my artwork "Inanna's storm" - see somewhere in the gallery thread. It was made by a special inspiration from her. This I agree with. Some religions hold the notion of duality, starting with male and female. I have not seen Sumerian references to this, other than astrology. But all the Sumerian gods do have bad/good sides (if you want to call it that). I know they viewed their demons as having positive and negative attributes, if demons are extensions of the gods, then why would the gods not have it as well? As for the swine - it's also one of the sacred animals of the Nordic equivalent of Inanna - Freya, along with her sacred cat. Except being a goddess of love and sex, Freya is the main rival of Odin in the battlefield - she also takes care for her favorite warriors, and gifts them with victory or with merciful release to her own palace of dead - Volkwangur, the rival of Odin's palace of Walhalla. She is also an unscrupulous whore who descended in the underworld to make sex with 7 dwarfs in order to pay for a magical adornment they should forge for her. Anyway, I like very much your new avatar Thanks. Frigg seems to have more a connection with Inanna though. Frigg is associated with fate and Venus, evening/morning star. I think old school scholars used to tie her with Inanna or as a form of Inanna. I am not sure, I'd have to look again. I mean its bad scholarship but its interesting to note in comparative mythology.
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Post by sheshki on May 12, 2011 11:16:31 GMT -5
Via Abzu i found a german dissertation by Geeta De Clercq about Ninegal. >>>LinkDie Göttin Ninegal/Belet-ekallim nach den altorientalischen Quellen des 3. und 2. Jt. v.Chr. : mit einer Zusammenfassung der hethitischen Belegstellen sowie der des 1. Jt. v. Chr. The Goddess Ninegal/Belet-ekallim according to the Ancient Near Eastern Sources of the 3rd and 2nd Millennium BC. This dissertation concentrates on the examination of a goddess called Ninegal in Sumerian, Belet-ekallim in Akkadian. Her name can be translated as ‘Lady/Mistress of the Palace’. This goddess who originates in Sumer was not only worshipped in Ancient Mesopotamia; her cult expanded to Ancient Syria, Palestine and even to Ancient Anatolia. As the ‘Lady/Mistress of the Palace’ Ninegal/Belet-ekallim was honoured in temples and even in the royal palace where she fulfilled the role of ‘Protectress of the Royal Dynasty’. Her cult can be examined through texts listing numerous sacrifices, cult participants, an own administration, worship during particular festivals/festive events and the introduction of her name as a month name. The ‘Lady/Mistress of the Palace’ functioned as a goddess on her own but her name was also used as a title for other goddesses. The specific use of her name as a title is testified by Sumerian literary texts, where a.o. Ishtar is called ‘Lady/Mistress of the Palace’. As most of the text sources mentioning Ninegal/Belet-ekallim are dated 3rd and 2nd Mill. BC, the research was restricted to this period. To offer a complete overview of all the texts revealing information about the goddess, also the occurrences in Hittite texts as well as in texts dating from the 1st Mill. BC are listed at the end of the dissertation; a detailed research of these texts is still outstanding.
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Post by enkur on May 13, 2011 5:45:43 GMT -5
To Lilitudemon:
Frigg?! She is a mother goddess. Please, believe me, I've studied the Eddas at the time, and there is not more exact Norse parallel to Inanna than Freya.
To Sheshki:
Interesting indeed. I thought it was Inanna's title because of the hymn to Inana as Ninegala (Inana D).
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Post by muska on May 13, 2011 7:24:23 GMT -5
If I m right, e-gal also means prison and epithet Ninegal means Inanna s role as former prisoner of Underworld and generally her connection with Underworld. When Gilgamesh in Gilgamesh and Bull of Heaven called her Ninegal, he hinted on dangerous perspective of their union in "wrong" time of ritual year (Emelianov s thought).
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Post by lilitudemon on May 13, 2011 8:37:14 GMT -5
Wouldn't that make it Lady of the Prison then? I'm kind of confused. I know Inanna tried to usurp Ereshkigal's throne, but why call her Lady of the prison of which she was a prisoner of? Unless this title is meant to be ironic.
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Post by enkur on May 14, 2011 5:17:30 GMT -5
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Post by muska on May 14, 2011 8:56:49 GMT -5
In this hymn Ninegala (Ninegal) is used as a title of Nungal.
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Post by lilitudemon on May 15, 2011 1:37:35 GMT -5
This is really interesting. This is the first I have ever heard of this deity. She seems to be really into determining true or false things or determining fate.
Looking over it...
"My house is built on compassion; I am a life-giving (?) lady.
[...]
He sentences that person to death, but he will not be killed; he snatches the man from the jaws of destruction and brings him into my house of life and keeps him under guard
[...]
My house gives birth to a just person, but exterminates a false one."
A goddess of life/judgement? I know this is also a metaphor for prison. But I find this very interesting.
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Post by muska on May 15, 2011 3:11:30 GMT -5
Nungal deserves a separate topic.
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Post by enkur on May 15, 2011 6:58:46 GMT -5
So we come to know there was something like a purgatory in the Sumerian belief, whose lady was Nungal - again a mysterious deity of paradoxical character uniting mercy and severity, compassion and punishment in one. A police-goddess who purifies the criminals who are not recidivists, and return them clean to their personal deities.
Note also line 50 of her hymn: lu2-be2-e-ne buru5mušen d nin-ninna2mušen-ta šu-ta šub-ba-gin7
"Its inmates, like small birds escaped from the claws of an owl"
d nin-ninna2mušen means an owl but the star determinative "d" for a deity is put before it, so I'm somehow reminded of the Burney relief.
Yes, Nungal definitely deserves a separate topic, but this hymn to her is the only text known to me.
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Post by muska on May 15, 2011 8:25:52 GMT -5
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Post by enkur on May 15, 2011 10:40:39 GMT -5
I do know that mentioning, and there are probably other mentionings as well but this hymn is the only text entirely dedicated to her - as far as I know.
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Post by enkur on May 16, 2011 18:08:06 GMT -5
Anyway, Muska, if you have what to say about Nungal, please, start a thread - I'm very interested in this goddess.
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Post by muska on May 17, 2011 3:15:20 GMT -5
OK. See here enenuru.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=expel&thread=370Upd: In above-mentioned book on Ninegal Nungal is recognized as an aspect of Inanna, later formed to separate goddess, so this thread is not a such wrong place to discuss her, but there are some problems connected especially with Nungal. In this connection will be interestiong to discuss a healing aspect of Inanna (invoked in birth-incantations) and the problem of Inanna-like goddesses (Ishara, Nanaya, Kanisura/Ussur-Amassu, Anunitu and so on). on Nanaya as a daughter of An and Inanna in Westenholz s article in this volume oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/as27.pdf
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Post by enkur on Mar 28, 2013 6:51:32 GMT -5
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Post by lilitudemon on Mar 7, 2015 1:55:08 GMT -5
I completely forgot these posts I made in this thread but I want to add something about Inanna-Ishtar from Black and Green. In this post I made I mention a hypothesis from there. Further her war aspect seems more centralized in Assyria than anywhere else.
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dingo
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 21
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Post by dingo on Jun 22, 2015 4:37:21 GMT -5
On the nature of the Cattle-pen Back in 2010 (april 5) Bill posted these snippets from lamentations to Inanna:
61: "May Lillaenna, Gashangunisurra, utter a prayer for you!" elsewhere: "I, Lillaenna, the lady of the cattle pen and sheepfold," elsewhere: "Lillaenna, lady of the cattle pen and sheepfold!" elsewhere: "Lillaenna, the lady of the cattle pen and sheepfold, the mother of the house"
Some of the symbolism here reminded me of some obscure aspects of Mesopotamian astrology, where the 'cattle-pen' (E2-TUR3-RA) is used as a name for heaven. The passage below is taken from 'Mesopotamian Cosmic Geography' by Wayne Horowitz: "The Cattle-pen-star, all of Heaven [so it is said] For all of Heaven. DIM2 means 'totality' ... so it says, for the creatures of heaven" [Source: Babylonian Planetary Omens vol 2, fascicle 2 by Reiner & Pingree] Commenting on this passage Horowitz says: '... the entire heavens seems to be a cattle-pen for the creatures of heaven (ie, the stars) (page 255 Cosmic Geography)
The BPO2 text continues: "The Path of the Sun at the foot of the cattle-pen belongs to Ea. The Path of the Sun in the middle of the cattle-pen belongs to Anu. The Path of the Sun at the head of the cattle-pen belongs to Enlil" Horowitz comments: the cosmic cattle-pen seems to be divided into thirds, with each third representing one of the three astronomical paths. .... As noted by W. Heimpall (Fest Sjoberg 249-52), the cattle of the sky in this context, as in Sumerian literature, are the stars. ... The image of the starry sky as a cattle-pen may provide indirect evidence that the sky was perceived as a dome. The original pictograph of the TUR3 (cattle-pen) sign includes a dome-shaped element (see Labat 87a), suggesting that some cattle-pens had dome-shaped roofs that might have been compared with the apparent dome of the sky. (note 14 on pages 255-6 of Cosmic Geog)
Going back to the original text in BPO2 (pages 42-3) may just provide a connection between the cattle-pen heavens and the image of lillaenna found in the Inanna lamentations. Although the Akkadian text is complete, parts of it cannot currently be translated. The text from Reiner & Pingree runs as follows: "The star for the womb is for .... The star of the woman with the ... womb ... cattle. U2 SHI = epidemic (among cattle)".
The Akkadian text is as follows: MUL.SHA3.TUR3.RA.SHE3 KI.KUR2.KUR2.RA.SHE3 bu-lu [la?] lu bu-lu MUL SAL.ARHUSH.SHA3.GA U2 SHE MASH2.ANSHE U2 SHI : me-qit-tu2
As a rank amateur I'm in no position to comment but it strikes me that these passages are talking about the same thing. One point that I would like to raise is the BPO2 translation of meqittu as 'epidemic (among cattle)' - this reflects common usage in omen literature but in birth incantations the verb maqatu can also refer to 'the fall', that is the birth, of a human child, which in the following except from a birth incantation is identified as the calf of a gazelle: "At her crying, at her screaming in labour, Nannaru was downcast. Sin heard her screaming in heaven and lifted high his hand. Two Lamassus descended from heaven. One of them carried oil-from-the-jar, the other brought down water-of-labour. With oil-from-the-jar she touched her forehead, with water-of-labour she sprinkled her whole body. Once again she touched her forehead with oil-from-the-jar, with water-of-labour she sprinkled her whole body. When she touched for the third time, the calf fell down (imtaqut) on the ground like a gazelle's young. @milk-calf' she called the calf. Just as Geme-Sin gave birth normally, may also this girl in labour give birth. Let the midwife not tarry, let the pregnant one be all right" (A Cow of Sin by Niek Veldhuis, pages 8-9)
To my mind at least all this suggests a doctrine of the heaven-born soul descending to earth to be born. Regards, Dingo
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creyente
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 37
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Post by creyente on Jul 1, 2015 13:09:33 GMT -5
here in argentina the phrase "ella/el quiere guerra" means "s/he wants war" but, metaphorically, it means "s/he want sex", also its usually used for afairs, or one night stands, and other kinds of sexual relationships. what an interesting coincidence, dont you think?
wasnt nippur the oldest city? or was it eridu? i think i would take the older word for reference if i were to choose one, but since they are gods and goddeses, we cant be sure father/mother is the same for them than for us... mostly because theres also certain "family gods" tradition, that can be counted as "fathers or mothers" of their followers... wich could mean there is certain "intern worship" between gods, in wich case, it could mean she is related to them by religion, wich also could explaine her usual habit of asking for help to other gods that usually grant her favors and show mutual respect.
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