42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Sept 3, 2016 9:49:33 GMT -5
Thank you again for the thorough examination and explanation. Yes, it seems like adding "self" would make sense. It would also add wonderful alternative meanings:
"Create yourself/tend yourself/transform yourself to thrive/flourish."
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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Sept 10, 2016 6:19:01 GMT -5
42below: Above on Aug. 22 we more or less finalized the first part of the message: gu2 mar-mar-de3 = "in order to thrive." On Aug. 31 I suggested that lexically, the verb šu dug4 "to transform" (as ePSD sees it) may need another element "self" in order to achieve the right nuance. In Sumerian, ni2 is self. But it is a little more complicated still. In the following I will try and detail grammatical consideration for the second part, bringing the language part of the tattoo to completion, I hope. First, I have been influenced by by a study done by F. Karahashi on the Sumerian compound Verbs (a PhD dissertation); p. 158 treats šu dug4 as follows: As can be seen, the verb is often paired with an adjective to modify an object. The formula then is object X is changed (šu dug4) to value of adjective X. Let's take example 6 given by Karahashi "gi-gun4-na kù-ga šu líl-lá ba-ab-dug" and use it to form our own expression: ní-a šu du7-a he-eb-dug4-ge In the visual above, note that the "raw text" is the cuneiform signs that would be used to spell the expression, the signs you would use in the tattoo. The "simplified" form is a reconstruction of the language underlying the writing, and what we use to examine the grammatical element in more detail. The verbal chain which I wrote there šu ... he-eb-dug4-ge is in analogy with an example from Jagersma's 2011 grammar p. 440 which reads šu he-eb-ba-re "he must release." It uses the he- prefix to give a precative sense 'one must change' as opposed to an imperfect without he- 'one will change'. Altogether, our expression can be understood as follows: ní-a (object) šu(first part of verb) du7-a(adjective) he-eb-dug4-ge(second part of verb). In this construction, the verb (šu ...dug) with prefix he- means "must change/alter": One must changed the object "self" with respect to the value of the adjective "suitable/perfect." Hence a smooth translation would be "One must make suitible/perfect oneself" with a literal meaning "one must change the self (with respect to) state of perfection/suitibility." The tattoo in total would then read (according to current understanding): gú mar-mar-dè ní-a šu du7-a he-eb-dug4-ge "In order to thrive, one must perfect/make suitable oneself." Whether you want to say perfect or make suitable is a matter of English wording, other words with similar value are also possible.
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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Sept 10, 2016 22:10:34 GMT -5
Let me know of what you think of the text so far 42below.
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Sept 12, 2016 18:21:51 GMT -5
Thank you once again for the detailed explanation. I'm very happy with where we have arrived! I like how the concept of pursuing perfection/self improvement is in there.
Would you be able to please post the phrase in cuneiform?
With the text part planned out, I will now need to sort out the artistic part - font, style, size, placement.
Will post up some drafts once I have them.
Thanks everyone!
42
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santakku
dubĝal (scribes assistent)
Posts: 47
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Post by santakku on Sept 13, 2016 4:03:56 GMT -5
I'm happy with this too. I think us4-he2-gal2 did a great job of getting closer to your original, including the the precative "one must" instead of an imperative. I would just query the use of the verbal infix -b- to resume the ni2 element. Would this not be an -n- for an animate referent? Or is that distinction just for subjects?
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santakku
dubĝal (scribes assistent)
Posts: 47
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Post by santakku on Sept 13, 2016 4:07:52 GMT -5
And /he/ or /he2/? I thought the latter was more common?
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santakku
dubĝal (scribes assistent)
Posts: 47
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Post by santakku on Sept 13, 2016 4:41:47 GMT -5
Here's the cuneiform:
gú mar-mar-dè ní-a šu du7-a ḫe-eb-du11-ge
𒄘 𒈥𒈥𒉈 𒉈𒀀 𒋗 𒌌𒀀 𒄭𒅁𒅗𒄀
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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Sept 13, 2016 9:59:01 GMT -5
Santakku:
I think we may be safe with the -b infix in ní-a šu du7-a ḫe-eb-du11-ge: Michalowski's Sumerian grammatical overview (p.38) states that nominal element in thecompund verb "is inanimate, indefinite, and generic; it is the semantic patient of the verb but it does not constitute a core argument of a clause, hence it is not marked by a case ending." The important part is that it appears to be the semantic patient of the actual verb so that in the verbal chain the gender (animate/inanimate) will reflect the gender of šu. So the -b- reflects šu rather than ni2. Now we have a maru form here so the agent ("One" as in "One must") is marked at the end of the chain with the -e.
As for the second point, you've definitely caught a mistake there! It should be he2 not he, so it is in the examples of "he must" in Jagersma and in the entry for he2 in Rubio's study of morphology. 42below and Sheshki should note an a sign correction: he2 not he. (Luckily, he2 looks cooler anyway).
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Post by sheshki on Sept 13, 2016 11:49:34 GMT -5
gu 2 mar-mar-de 3 ni 2-a šu du 7-a ḫe 2-eb-du 11-ge and yes, ḫe 2 does look way cooler
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Sept 14, 2016 8:37:24 GMT -5
Does anyone know what font the iPhone uses for cuneiform? I actually rather like it. I know it's not particularly historically accurate (is it based on Persian cuneiform?), but it's definitely stylish.
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Sept 14, 2016 9:57:36 GMT -5
Santakku (or anyone else who can)
Could you please post the final version in Unicode?
Much appreciated!
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santakku
dubĝal (scribes assistent)
Posts: 47
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Post by santakku on Sept 20, 2016 15:25:29 GMT -5
gu2 mar-mar-de3 ni2-a šu du7-a ḫe2-eb-du11-ge 𒄘 𒈥𒈥𒉈 𒉈𒀀 𒋗 𒌌𒀀 𒃶𒅁𒅗𒄀
Can you screenshot the iPhone?
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Sept 20, 2016 16:58:46 GMT -5
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Sept 20, 2016 21:26:25 GMT -5
Looks like one character is wrong. The ni2 has been replaced with a second de3
It should be:
𒄘 𒈥𒈥𒉈 𒉎𒀀 𒋗 𒌌𒀀 𒃶𒅁𒅗𒄀
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santakku
dubĝal (scribes assistent)
Posts: 47
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Post by santakku on Sept 22, 2016 4:01:52 GMT -5
Great spot! The de3 sign can be read ni5, but it's not the sign in the transliteration. ni2 is the correct one for here, making it: gu2 mar-mar-de3 ni2-a šu du7-a ḫe2-eb-du11-ge 𒄘 𒈥𒈥𒉈 𒉎𒀀 𒋗 𒌌𒀀 𒃶𒅁𒅗𒄀 I swear I double-checked it last time too, but good job you spotted it. Now triple checked. The font looks to be the generic Unicode monospaced one used on my PC too. The script is about 2000 BCE, Mesopotamian, so perfect for the language. The similarity to the Persian is just in the stroke style, which is the cleaner style of wedge most usual with stone inscriptions (I don't think that was a conscious font decision - triangles are just easier to do ).
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Sept 22, 2016 10:21:58 GMT -5
Sweet. Now to find the right tattoo artist and get some mock ups done...
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Sept 22, 2016 11:10:28 GMT -5
Also, I can't seem to find the Unicode for "iri". Is there one?
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Post by sheshki on Sept 22, 2016 18:32:10 GMT -5
Look for eri, re2, ri2, u19 or uru. These are other values for the sign.
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Sept 22, 2016 23:47:34 GMT -5
This one?
𒌷
It's listed as URU.
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santakku
dubĝal (scribes assistent)
Posts: 47
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Post by santakku on Sept 23, 2016 3:41:00 GMT -5
Yes!
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Sept 25, 2016 17:28:14 GMT -5
Hi all,
Another small question on character spacing, if I may. What is the accepted approach? Is there a slight space in between each character and a bigger one between words? That's the way the Unicode seems to show it.
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Oct 30, 2016 21:30:18 GMT -5
Any advice on spacing?
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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Oct 30, 2016 22:32:50 GMT -5
Believe it or not, this is actually not so easy a question for me to answer as I don't usually work with the tablets themselves at this stage, and instead reference line drawings, drawings of the tablets which don't necessarily recreate the spacing situations exactly. Turning to photographs of the tablets, which are sometimes available online, the situation is a bit of a nightmare really, as some Sumerian literary texts we know from nice clean presentations at ETCSL are actually composed of 5-20 fragments, some of which do not even contain one full intact line. Long story short, I believe at least some Old Babylonian era literary texts composed in Sumerian do in fact space out the signs representing different words *when space permits*. And space may or may not permit, depending on the size of the script, the hand of the scribe, the width of that particular tablet and so on. Take for example this text: cdli.ucla.edu/dl/lineart/P259234_ld.jpg This is a tablet containing some of the text from the myth Enki and Ninmah. You can see that on most lines, there are too many signs involved to permit word spacing ..but occasionally, should space permit, there is clear spacing between the words such as on line 36 which reads tud-tud-a-zu ḫa-ra-gub-bu-ne . Because you can afford the space, in theory, I would suggest using a spacing such as you see between tud-tud-a-zu and ḫa-ra-gub-bu-ne . I have not conducted a statistical study on this, and I am not going on anyone elses research, but after a small investigation this is my suggestion. Spacing in the following tablet leads me to think that the nominal element of compound verbs should not be spaced but is lumped together with the verbal chain, I will break it down in a moment. cdli.ucla.edu/dl/lineart/P345406_l.jpgSo that means: gu2-mar-mar-de3 <space> ni2-a <space> šu-du7-a-ḫe2-eb-du11-ge This spacing suggestion reflects the word divisions I've noticed on the above mentioned tablets. Best Regards -Bill
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on Nov 8, 2016 3:13:29 GMT -5
Thanks, Bill! Much appreciated!
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42below
dubsartur (junior scribe)
Posts: 25
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Post by 42below on May 2, 2017 19:46:30 GMT -5
Hi all, Just a quick update. Life took over and I had to put my tattoo plans on ice for a while. Am finally going to see an artist and get some stencils done in a couple of weeks. Am using this image as the starting point. May end up breaking it up over 2-3 lines (starting a new line where the spaces between words are). May also end up writing it vertically. Will post up the stencils when I have them.
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