ldordai: help with translation?

[ldordai]

Hey All,



I seem to have stumbled upon the right place. I have been researching cuneiform (mostly assyrian and babylonian) for the past 6 months and have been having a tough time coming up with an answer to my question. I'm planning on getting a tattoo (original, I know). I'm trying to translate the phrase "Greed poisons the soul of man" or "greed has poisoned men's souls" from Charlie Chaplin's speech in The Dictator. I've been having some trouble coming up with some of the phoenetic translations for lack of a better way to describe it. I stumbled upon the virtual secrets translator a while ago, but that seems like its more for fun, and less if you want to find an accurate translation. The ePSD database seems like it would be useful, although I am having a hard time figuring out how it works and how the phoenetics translate. Would anyone care to help me with this one?

[us4-he2-gal2]

ldordai:



Yes, I think we can help you with this request. It may take a bit of time to develop, this phrase would bear some translation difficulties. Another factor would be whether you would want it in the Sumerian or Akkadian language both of which share the cuneiform writing system in common.

[ldordai]

Thank you so much for the reply!  I understand it is a difficult translation, as certain syllables in the phrase I would like don't really exist.  Right now, I am leaning towards Akkadian Cuneiform, for no other reason other than looks.  I would be open to the Sumerian cuneform translation as well.  I have tried to come up with something myself, I have attached a photo.  Please pardon the awful drawing.

[us4-he2-gal2]

ldordai:



Sorry for the slow response. I have recently relocated to Germany (again) for a few months. Your cuneiform drawing is not to bad! Now it may be difficult for me to interpret what is being said because, as has become clear again because of the message you desire, the expression and thinking of the ancients differed from our own. I am still grappling with the best way to say this in Akkadian but getting closer I think.


So we are looking for: "1.greed 2. has poisoned 3. men's souls"

As for 1. greed: It seems to me that both the Sumerians and the Akkadians lacked a word that could easily be translated "greed" but do refer to coveting through the use of expressions involving wandering eyes - Sumerian has a word 'igi-tum3' which can variously be interpreted 'to spy' or 'to covet' ; Akkadian uses an expression inīn ana X našum "to raise the eyes to X" meaning "to covet." This is as close as these language come to saying "greed."


2. poisoned should be easier.

3. men's souls: This would also be extremely difficult to translate except that there have been lengthy discussions on the Mesopotamian notions of soul here at enenuru. We would probably go with the term zaqiqu, an elusive and mysterious concept which nonetheless is the dream soul which was thought to reside within the body, a wind like apparition that could receive dream messages from the netherworld (which is 'the locus of future').


enenuru.proboards.com/thread/40/revisions-on-sisig


In this case, we may be able to say something like 'wandering eyes has caused the poisoning of men's souls"

[ldordai]

us4,

This is amazing. I really appreciate this, and thanks so much for taking the time to respond amidst what I am sure is a crazy period in your life! I appreciate the explanation of what is translatable and what isn't, and I love the explanation and story behind the Zaqiqu, it seems like the right fit for what I am going for.

From this point, what would be the best way to go about getting a translation into the traditional symbols? I don't want to ask you to do everything of course, if you could point me in the right direction or explain to me how to use the ePSD database, that would be fantastic!

[us4-he2-gal2]

ldorlai: Sorry for my slow responses again, things are indeed hectic at the moment, however I often thought about this thread and finishing this little project. Well, I prefer to use a "text book" example, an example from a text book (Huehnergard 1997 pg. 17) in order to emulate how the ancients may have expressed such a statement. So we have the sentence:


wardum ina šarāqim ša hurāṣim imqut

lit. : The slave, in the stealing of the gold, fell


Therefore I would reformulate "Greed poisons the soul of man" into a phrase such as:


a) The souls of men, b) by their coverting c) poison was placed in them






a) into the souls of men:

In order to express this statement, rare in Mesopotamian texts, I refer to our Revisions on Sisig thread, where on April 14th 2008 the following text was quoted:

13. sig.sig.ga nigin.nam.lú.u18.lu.ke4 šu.min ma.ra.ni.íb.gi4-gi4
zi-qí-qa šá nap-har ni-ši ú-šá-an-na-ke


"the zaqīqu(s) of all mankind report to you, (Shamash)."


We do not need the word "all" , taking that away we are left with:

ziqíqu šá niši - the souls of people





b) by their coveting:

As discussed above, there is no direct translation into Akkadian of "greed" , however the language does express the concept of 'to covet' by the following expression:

ina našum ša inīn : in the raising of the eyes







c) poison was placed in them


Again, Akkadian frustrates a direct translation of "were poisoned" and seems to lack a verb form of the common noun imtu "poison." It always seems to be that the poison was spit upon or placed into the body, but you cannot use imtu by itself as a verb i.e. "poisoned so and so." There we would need to use two words.
CAD i/j p. 140 (The Chicago Assyrian Dictionary) explains that the meaning "poison" of imtu derives specifically from as its association with the venom of snakes and scorpions. In a text mention in the same dictionary entry, the expresion imtu...iškunu is used, 'they placed poison (in his body). Hence this is a possible expression:

imtu iškunušunūti : poison was placed in them





So the entire phrase would be:



ziqíqu šá niši ina našum ša inīn imtu iškunušunūti

The souls of men, by their coveting, poison was placed in them.





As for the cuneiform signs, the local dub-sar, the chief scribe, Sheshki, may be able to pay a visit in the next few days and then it is a done deal Of course, in the mean time, you are welcome to further negotiate and modify the suggested wording above etc. or to ask for clarifications.

[ldordai]

us4,

This is absolutely fantastic. I never thought that while searching for a translation I would get into the culture and language of an ancient society as in depth as I have, thanks to your help. I'd imagine I can take the phrase you've put together and use ePSD to come up with some sort of cuneiform signing?

[us4-he2-gal2]

ldordai: Yes, you could use ePSD. But I think Sheshki will be around soon most likely with the signs.

[sheshki]

Well, there ya go...this will fill up your arm nicely...don´t forget to post a picture when it is done.

zi	qi2	qu

ša2

ni	ši

ina

na	šum

ša

in	in

im-tu

iš	kun	u	šu	nu	ti