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Post by hukkana on Jan 11, 2016 13:56:58 GMT -5
Going through various lists in the past few days, I discovered a few interesting facts linking the two deities, provided one goes from the assumption that he's not a son of Anu directly. Going by the An Anum, the list of ancestors for Anu consists of 10 generations of ancestors, while the list of Enlil consits of 21 pairs, though you find refferences to Enmešarra as an uncle of Enlil, even though it's a word that also means ancestor, I preffer to look at Enmešarra and his seven sons at least momentarily as the uncle and cousins of Enlil, who revolt against him. I have no real reason to expect Endukuga to be the father of Enlil beyond speculation based on the father of Enlil reffered to as Lugaldukuga, who is not actually mentioned in the enumeration of ancestors and is not mentioned to have a spouse, so my completely baseless leap of speculation is centered around Lugaldukuga possibly being another name for Endukuga, mostly because the only thing different is the title of rulership, which I'm not qualified to judge the interchangability of the terms or meanings given various discussion on the topic here, but it's just a way for me to rationalise the fact that Enmešarra's seven sons are listed in order, while Enlil is not directly noted to be one of his sons. The main point of interest here is the presence of a pair deities named "Enšar and Ninšar" in both genealogies of Anu and Enlil, however the An Anum lists a different series of ancestors for each. Interestingly enough Oracc describes a tradition which named Nuska, Enlil's vizier, as a child of Enul and Ninul and thus an ancestor of Enlil. Another intersting tidbit seems to be the personage of the god Saman, mentioned in the An Anum, who is noted as being a son of Anu but also being married to Ninurta's sister Ninudzale, and Ninurta is attested as Enlil's son. So you have at least two traditions which link the families of Anu and Enlil, while also having a pair of identically named ancestors. As for Saman the only other refference I found to him is from a text which mentions him, Iškur and Martu as Sons of Anu. books.google.cz/books?id=3n595HVp9BMC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=%22Son+of+An%22+%22Saman%22&source=bl&ots=vElxUespxX&sig=ag7moRyAYGSFXhbzGku-AQ5bqYU&hl=cs&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjygZ_J9aHKAhWFdQ8KHUaOC2cQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=%22Son%20of%20An%22%20%22Saman%22&f=falseForgive me if this seems elementary to you all, as it's basically the first thing in the An Anum but it's something I've not really seen discussed elsewhere.
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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Mar 26, 2018 23:53:12 GMT -5
Hukkana: I was reminded to take another look at this thread recently, upon seeing your exchange with Nocodeyv on this thread (readers interested in the subject should also read the bottom of the thread just linked). This is some excellent work on the genealogy of Enlil :] In order to contribute something here, I would offer the advice that I think both you and Nocodeyv should combine your very astute observations with some perspectives from some key commentators. Stand on the shoulders of giants they say. Well, I am thinking here of Prof. Wang whose 2011 'the Metamorphosis of Enlil' is am important study of this god. Granted, he does not seem to really discuss the ancestors of Enlil (unless I have missed it) because he focuses on Enlil in the earliest contexts. Here we learn that Enlil was certainly thought to be the son of An / Anu in the 3rd millennium. Here are a few quotes: So, we see from this quote that Enlil does not seem to have been localized as the king of the lands in Uruk until the time of Urukian king Lugalzagesi, that is, at the end of the ED period right before the invasion of Sargon (OR: is it that we simply have not dug up sufficient artifacts that would date this theology earlier?). When he was localized in other Sumerian cities is a matter of debate for sure. In any case, at that time, he was conceived of as being the son of An.
The question becomes then, at what point in Mesopotamian theological thinking do the ancestors of Enlil materialize? It is clear that, according to the much later AN : Anum god list (earlist attestation in the Middle Assyrian period, approx. 1100 BC), Enlil is then thought to descend from an alternative genealogy rather than from An directly. Although Wiggermann has taken to referring to the Enmesharra mythology as coming from a group of 'third millennium' myths, I found this description to be somewhat misleading. At least, on reading into it, the ancestors seem to me to be second millennium theology at earliest. Here is an extract from the Enmesharra thread, posted originally in 2007. I quote one of the original members here, Cynsanity, who didn't give a page number, but refers to footnotes from Katz' book The Image of the Netherworld in Sumerian Sources, the section in which the texts known as the Death of Gilgamesh is discussed: (Relevant Thread Here) From Old Babylonian texts: 1.8.1.3 The death of Gilgameš – [Enmesharra as an ancestor god.] -“Gilgameš, the son of Ninsumun, set out their audience-gifts for Ereškigala. He set out their gifts for Namtar. He set out their surprises for Dimpikug. He set out their presents for Neti. He set out their presents for Ninĝišzida and Dumuzid. He …… the audience-gifts for Enki, Ninki, Enmul, Ninmul, Endukuga, Nindukuga, Enindašuruma, Nindašuruma, Enmu-utula, En-me-šara, the maternal and paternal ancestors of Enlil”
Cyn: as regards your not finding Enmesharra in the early god lists, this is born out as well in Katz commentaries on the above lines [5]. She comments in regards to the list of ancestors [Enki/Ninki onwards] “that part, a short list of the ancestors of Enlil, parallels the beginning of the Old Babylonian god-list in TCL 15, 10, and is analogous to the much more elaborated later list An=Anum (Ct 24 pl.4). The addition of Enlil’s forefathers to the list fo gods of the netherworld is a sign of later elaboration, which implies that the full list dates to the Old Babylonian period and suggests that the section of the netherworld gods is earlier, maybe even UrIII as is the date of DUr [Death of Ur-Nammu].” This is followed not long after by the pointed “ The chthonic deities and their role in Sumerian cosmology and theogony were studied extensively by van Djik in “Le motif cosmique.” In a detailed analysis of the god-lists, he convincingly demonstrates that the presentation of these deities as Enlil’s ancestors is a development later than the Old Babylonian god-list of TCL 15,10, a system that was introduced by the thinkers who conceieved An-Anum. Van Dijk also concludes that (being a later development) this theogonic system is not Sumerian. Yet, he does remark that this concept already appears in DGil [Death of Gilgamesh] and some other Sumerian [language] texts, which means that this concept was conceived in the Old Babylonian period. Evidently, the compiler of the old Babylonian Nippur list SLT 122 was not familiar with this new concept either, which may indicate that the list of source N3 of DGil is later than both Old Babylonian god-lists.”
In considering the AN : Anum theology, it is important to consider it alongside of other data such as this OB godlist TCL 15, 10 and so forth, I suppose. Do you both have access to the Wang and the Katz? Send me a PM if you don't. Also, I think the thread linked above may be the one you were looking for Nocodeyv, it focuses on Enmesharra.
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nocodeyv
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Post by nocodeyv on Mar 28, 2018 15:37:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply here, Bill.
Yes, the Enmešara thread you linked is the one that I was referencing in the Wiggermann thread on Sumero-Akkadian demons, thanks for finding it. The potential ideological conflict between the ME and NAMTAR has fascinated me since I first read about it there.
The fluctuation of genealogy in Mesopotamian mythology has definitely made my study of the relationships between various deities interesting, and Enlil has one of the more complex genealogies I've encountered. I, personally, utilize the lexical list AN = Anum in my approach not because of its prominence as the oldest or most accurate account, but because of its completeness, since the seven tablets contain all of the "major" deities (those whose names I'm intimately familiar with) as well as hundreds (thousands?) of lesser ones that I may not encounter anywhere else, but which the Mesopotamians themselves deemed worthy of mentioning. I do try to keep an open mind to the fact that local pantheons, state religion, the rise and collapse of empires, and the process of syncretization had monumental effects on genealogies though.
On this subject, Bill, do you know of anyone who has written about the use of words like father/mother or brother/sister in Sumerian/Akkadian? I've recently encountered the idea that these appellations may not reflect a deity's genealogy, but their social hierarchy. Inana and Ereškigal, for example, may not be sisters by blood, but "sisters" in the sense that their positions of power are equal within the pantheon.
Regarding your final question, I only have a copy of Katz's "Image of the Netherworld," not the article from Wang, of which I'd like a copy, please and thank you.
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enkigal
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Post by enkigal on Apr 22, 2018 8:55:39 GMT -5
On this subject, Bill, do you know of anyone who has written about the use of words like father/mother or brother/sister in Sumerian/Akkadian? I've recently encountered the idea that these appellations may not reflect a deity's genealogy, but their social hierarchy. Inana and Ereškigal, for example, may not be sisters by blood, but "sisters" in the sense that their positions of power are equal within the pantheon. I always thought the same. This might explain all the inconsistencies in divine genealogies. For instance, Enki is Enlil's son in a composition (ETCSL 1.1.3) but his father (or ancestor) in another (ETCSL 1.8.1.3) and otherwise they are brothers.
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enkigal
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Post by enkigal on Apr 22, 2018 9:01:18 GMT -5
I'd also consider the possiblity that Sumerian used the Hawai'ian kinship system. In Hawai'ian language only a few kinship terms exist: "father", "mother", "brother", "sister", "son" and "daughter" - more distant relatives such are simply equated with closer ones (so "uncle" = "father", "cousin" = "sister" etc.).
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