Hope you can help

[42below]

Hi everyone,

I couldn't believe my luck when I not only found this forum, but also a sub-board specifically for these types of queries. I'm hopeful that someone may be able to help clarify a few things? Actually, quite a few things, but I've tried to be very specific with my questions. Apologies for the long post.

Over the last few weeks I have been trailing the Internet to get my head around the basics of Sumerian cuneiform script in order to write some text for what would be my first tattoo.

There are two parts to the tattoo and so two sets of questions.

Part 1: phonetically writing two female names:

"Irisha", with both "i"s pronounced as in the word "reed" or "ski" and with the "sha" pronounced as in "shut".

"Sasha", with "sa" as in "sum" and "sha" as in "shut".

Based on the research I did, I believe I could use the following characters for Irisha:

I = 1213F (meaning "5"),
ri = 12291 (meaning "place") OR 12337 (meaning "civilisation"),
sha = 122AE or 122AD (both meaning "heart") I know there is one more option for sha, but it's meaning is unclear and I'd prefer not to use it.

For Sasha:

Sa = 12137 and 1223E (meaning "bird and "incense") I know there are other, simpler options, but I prefer this one because of the meaning.
Sha = 122AE or 122AD (both meaning "heart")

Is my understanding above correct?

If so, what is the difference between the two possible "sha" characters? They seem to have the same meaning and almost the same pronunciation, yet look different. Is it just that 122AE is definitely a long "a", whereas 122AD could be long or short? Or are they separated by time of occurrence?

Do I need a determinative to symbolise that each of these is a female name? If so, which determinative should I use and does it come before or after the name?

Finally, would it be erroneous to write one name horizontally and the other vertically, meeting on the "sha" character? I understand that Sumerian was originally written vertically, and only later switched to "left to right" writing. Though I also understand that at the time the orientation switched, the characters were rotated. So, if I wrote Irisha "left to right" and then added "sa" above the "sha", I presume that would be incorrect? Are there historical examples of vertical Sumerian writing where the characters are oriented in the same way as when the text is horizontal?

Part 2: translating a motto

I would like to write the following motto in Sumerian:

(One must) transform/change/adapt (in order) to thrive/succeed

I understand that "to transform" is šu dug4

But how do I turn it into an imperative form?

I also understand that "to thrive" is "gu2 mar-mar" or "gu2me-er-me-er"

But do I need to do anything to this verb to tie it into the sentence?

Apologies if I am asking a lot of questions. I just want to make sure it's right.

My reasons for using Sumerian cuneiform are many.

Yes it is probably the oldest written language - that's what seems to attract a lot of people, myself included. Sumerians gave this amazing gift to humanity - the written word - and it made us more human. Yet, it's a language with no apparent ancestors and no descendants - no current nation or country owns it. I am a third culture kid, and I really do not have a culture, nation or country I can call 100% my own. I identify with humanity as a whole and so using an ancient language that cannot be claimed by any modern country or group of people seems right in that respect. I hope you can help. Thanks in advance.

[sheshki]

First of all i really like the fact that you´ve put time and effort into researching your planned tattoo!

About part 1:

What you found out is correct.

Irisha can be written:

I	RI	ŠA3

another possibility would be:

I	RI	ŠA

according to Borgers Mesopotamisches Zeichenlexikon there are more then 20 different signs that can be read as ŠA

You could also replace I-RI with IRI (city) , like in IRI-KUG, (holy city, part of Girsu)

IRI	ŠA

Sasha can be written:

SA	ŠA

again, according to Borger there are around 20 different signs that can be read as SA.

You can basically use any sign that has the right reading to write those names. I don´t think you would need a determinative.

Also i personally don´t see a problem to write one vertically, one horizontally and let them meet at ŠA. It´s a tattoo after all, and this counts as artistic license

As for part two of your question Ush-he-gal will have an answer for that

ps.: according to Borger there are 12 different signs to write RI

[42below]

Thank you so much for your reply, sheshki. It’s very useful and it’s good to know I haven’t completely stuffed things up when figuring them out on my own.
The MUGSAR dictionary also lists a SA4 (“HU.NA”), made up of the following two characters meaning “bird” and “incense”:

I like the meanings of the characters, but I don’t understand how two characters with their own sounds (HU and NA) can together be pronounced as a completely different 3rd sound (SA)? Is it a mistake in the MUGSAR?

[sheshki]

I have never heard of the MUGSAR website before, i tend to use sources like the --->ETCSL Signlist (link), --->ePSD (link) or
the book "Mesopotamische Zeichenliste" by R. Borger.

So, according to these sources SA₄ is HU.NA₂

Archaeologists have found numerous tablets over the decades, some of them contained lexical lists,
or Sumerian-Akkadian dictionaries if you will. That is how we know that HU and NA₂ combined can be read as SA,
if the circumstances are right.
 
One example would be the city name Nippur, which is written

EN	LIL2	KI

but is read Nibru...

Here is an excerpt from a royal inscription



Line one and two have the signs for Enlil,  EN and  LIL_2, but line 1 has the determinative  KI
which tells the reader that it is a place/city and is to be read as Nibru, and the second line has the determinative  Dingir,
which tells the reader that a divine name follows, therefore it is to be read as Enlil.

Here is a quote from Hayes Sumerian Grammar, a fun book btw

"The Sumerian pronunciation of the name of the city of Nippur is known from lexical lists,
where En-lil₂^ki is spelled out as Ni-ib-ru. Similarly, the Akkadian pronunciation of the city name
is also known from lexical lists, where it is spelled out as Ni-ip-pu-ru.
The Sumerian writing of the place name represents a not uncommon instance where the
writing system tells us nothing about the pronunciation of the place name. The etymology of
Nibru is unknown; it is presumably a pre-Sumerian substrate name. However, the city was
especially associated with the god Enlil. Therefore, the name of the city was written with the
same two signs used in the spelling of the name of the god, but followed by the determinative
for GNs: En-lil₂ ^ki .That is, the writing does not attempt to reproduce the phonetic sequence
/nibru/. Rather, the Sumerian reader would understand the written signs as standing for "the
place associated with the god Enlil", that is, "Nippur"."

[sheshki]

I just had a look at MUGSAR. Well, whoever the person running this website is, looks like he knows stuff, but he clearly does not.

A fine example are his translations.


Example:

 

His "translation" of line 4, which reads NIN IRI.KUG.GA, for example is: "lady, mistress; SHEKEL grain price; pure; suckling, carry (cow)"...
which does not make an awful lot of sense. The proper translation would be "Lady of the Holy City". (you remember, i wrote about IRI.KUG earlier).
Looks like he couldn´t figure out what sign IRI  is so he just turned it and claimed it is the sign for Shekel (GIN₂) .

Next line is NIN.A.NI, which he "translates" with: "lady, mistress; water / river; bemoan; in time; quiver", again gibberish.
Proper translation here is "His lady"... and so it continues..

The problem with MUGSAR is, that the person who runs it does not know the signs very well and also  seems to have never heard of grammar.
Why? Because he translates syllabic signs and determinatives, which are there for grammatical reasons, as if they are words.

I can only suggest to stay away from MUGSAR.


edit: Now that i´ve looked at his complete "translation" i have to say he got it almost completly wrong.
Which can happen, but in my opinion he shouldn´t act like he knows this stuff.
And to answer the quote of him concerning this tablet ("Mmnm … not translated huh? Let’s apply MUGSAR 4-Way and see how far we get…"): You got nowhere.

[sheshki]

Well, i feel like i should give a rough translation of the tablet, for completeness sake (there may be errors tho).





For Baba
the beautiful woman
the daughter of An
the lady of the Holy City
his lady
Gudea
Ensi of Lagash
the man who built the Eninnu
of Ningirsu
the PA temple, the temple of the seven corners
he built
her temple in the Holy City
he built for her.

[santakku]

Hi. Hope I can help too. I think it’s worth reiterating what Sheshki said, as you can at least start to see a consensus.

(The Unicode should work fine if you copy and paste it elsewhere. If not, I’ll repost another way. I recommend the font SantakkuM [unrelated to me] as a good one for this project. Slightly later than spoken Sumerian, but intentionally archaic and higher quality than CuneiformComposite or Akkadian.ttf. It’s based on Ḫammu-rabi’s stele)

So, the most normal way of writing the names would be, in my opinion:
Sasha – 𒊓𒊭 – (or, according to your phonetic directions) 𒋢𒋗
Irisha – 𒄿𒊑𒊭 – (or, according to your phonetic directions) 𒄿𒊑𒋗
To be honest, I’d go with the first option, as most Assyriologists would read “shoo” and not “shu” for 𒋗 (there’s no way of distinguishing in Sumerian cuneiform). The same for 𒊓 and 𒋢. In fact, yeah, stick to /sa/ and /ša/. The vowel length goes unmarked, but it’s totally amazing that you thought to specify these things!

The determinative would be 𒊩, but this is rarely (if at all) used in this way in Sumerian texts. If you want to emphasise their femininity, then maybe go for it (one 𒊩 in the space formed by the crossed names maybe?), but be warned the sign is (in origin) a vagina, so maybe not the best! Your call. 

Presuming you love rather than hate these individuals, I personally could not resist using 𒊮 for 𒊭 as the common sign. It’s simply too good a coincidence! I don’t actually know of any other reading for 𒊮 than ša3 – “heart” in Sumerian, so no particular ambiguity there. Yes, it gets difficult in later cuneiform, but the same problems occur for any other sign too. Plus, a Sumerian would understand the play – ša3 (though it probably means “guts” literally) was seen as the metaphorical seat of love.

The acrostic would work, even though your understanding of the directionality is spot on. I.e., it would be ‘incorrect’ in exactly the same way as an English acrostic.

As for the motto, now there’s a challenge. I think even two professors would give slightly different answers. But I for one will enjoy trying! I’ll explain my attempt in detail, not for you, but for the Sumerian buffs to critique. No doubt it will require revision:

𒅇𒈠 𒈬𒌒𒁺𒂊𒂠 𒋗 𒅗𒁀
u3-ma mu-ub-gub-e-še3 šu du11-ba
uma – victory/an objective – absolutive
mubgubeše – stand – “you will stand”, second-person transitive marû, /eše/ directive, “so that…”. I guess a literal translation of the idiom would be “to stand a victory up”, but I am only going on the fact the nominal element of compound verbs tends to be absolutive, i.e. the object (marked with a /b/ here). This seems a bit weird for /gub/, a largely (or wholly?) intransitive verb, “stand”. Maybe u3-ma-še3 ba-an-ši-gub-e-še3, “in order that you stand before a victory” (middle voice /ba/) is the correct usage. I’ll need to look up examples.
šu – hand – absolutive, part of compound verbal idiom, “change”
duba – change – marû transitive imperative (verbal prefixes suffixed), “speak”(?), part of compound verbal idiom, “change”, main verb in final position

I’d like a second opinion on the verbal chains at least.

Finally, I’m really impressed by your research, and providing the most reasonable justification for a Sumerian tattoo I’ve ever heard.  Yes, steer clear from MUGSAR, but you sound like you have enough determination and scepticism to find what you need.

[santakku]

I've had a look for u3-ma gub on CDLI (http://cdli.ucla.edu/). I found a text with it in: 'Inana and Ebih' (http://cdli.ucla.edu/Q000339), line 180. ETCSL has the line translated (http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1/tr132.htm) "I imposed my victory on the mountain", employing /uma/ as the absolutive object. I.e., my first guess, u3-ma mu-ub-gub-e-še3, seems to be correct.

[us4-he2-gal2]

Fantastic responses sheski and santakku, you guys are great 42below, should you log on again, please let us know where you are with your plans and/or ask further questions and we will see what can be done.

[42below]

Thanks, everyone - especially sheski and santakku. I'm logging in every day, checking for updates and am reading a really useful grammar book thata sheski PM'ed me.

Santakku - do you have a view on sheski's suggestion to use "iri" (city), which would take Irisha down to just two characters? If it works, that would be my best pick. Irisha is my wife, and I really do think of her as the city where my heart resides.

Also for Sasha (my daughter), while I could just write SA using the “reed bundle” character (etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/png/SA.png), for symbolic reasons, I would prefer to use SA2 (DI). Writing it as SA2-ša3, that would have a lot more meaning for me. The characters would mean “counsel/advice/justice”-“heart”, which I would identify with keeping my heart’s counsel and heeding my heart’s advice. This is more meaningful than “bundle”-“heart”.

The symbolism is great, but I don’t want to stretch the characters beyond their reasonable interpretation. For example, I would think twice about writing “SA2-ša3“ on my body, if the obvious way that any Sumerian scholar would pronounce it is “DI-šag4”. I want it to be reasonably understandable that I’m writing something that should be pronounced “SA-SHA”.

[42below]

Santakku - Thanks very much for having a go at the motto translation. Can I test whether I have understood correctly what the English literal meaning would be for "u3-ma mu-ub-gub-e-še3 šu du11-ba"? Is the more-or-less literal meaning basically "so that you impose victory, (you must) change"? I understand that the ordering of the characters, as required by Sumerian grammar, makes the actual literal translation more like "victory you impose so that, change (you must)". Sounds like a Yoda saying - I like it =).

Would be really good to see someone else weigh in on whether it all hangs together correctly.

Getting massively excited now. The dream is slowly but surely becoming reality.

[42below]

And the last query for today.

Below is an example of a cuneiform tattoo I came across online, which was done in my city. I could be wrong, but the font/styling looks a little different to the SantakkuM font. Is the font in the tattoo a decent match to the text I'm trying to write, or does it reflect a different time period, or non-Sumerian use of cuneiform script? Could also be just stylised by the artist, I guess. I quite like the way it looks, but I wouldn't use it if it was, for example, Persian cuneiform.



Thanks again.

42

[santakku]

So, reasonable would be /sa-ša3/. /sa2/ for DI would be ambiguous, but /ša/ or /ša3/ is fine. On the other hand, the leader Uru-KA-gina and people like that wrote their names with ambiguous signs (Uru-inim-gina?), so it may just be my own bias.

As for /iri/, yeah, one sign is good, especially for balance with Sasha. It's just not very common in later Akkadian - my area - although that fact means nothing in this context.

Uru-KA-gina, my random example, jogged a memory. Has wife was Sasa, "good, good" or "nice, nice", written /sa6-sa6/ 𒊷𒊷. So there is some good prosopographic support for writing /sa6-ša3/ 𒊷𒊮. I think you mentioned /sa6/ before.

Finally, if the original meanings of the signs fit, then brilliant, if not then no worries. A native Sumerian scribe could use phonetic signs without any implications to their semantic value. So "bundle-heart" ain't terrible. It's a bit like for the word "look" - you doodle to make the "oo" two eyes, as a play, rather than turning the "l" into a walking stick (or some other such nonsense). Maybe that example didn't help, but what I mean is the meanings are more of a bonus.

Us4-he2-gal2: can you help with the proverb? My Sumerian is not definitive!

[42below]

Thanks santakku. Are you saying that /sa2-ša3/ would be ambiguous, in that it could be read as either "sa-sha" or "di-sha"? Or are you saying that using sa2 to denote "DI" would be ambiguous, because it is rarely used that way? Just to be clear, I was keen to use sa2 to denote the phonetic "sa", not to denote "di".

[santakku]

(Sorry, missed your last two my first time)

That photo looks Persian to me. Well, I didn't recognise it, but it's clearly 'foreign', first millennium, and a Unicode search says Persian. So not your thing. But you could steal the wedge shape and spacing from it if you like it.

Yes, that understanding is correct - no idea how you do that. You should really take up Sumerian! The final verb, "change", is an imperative (just to clarify). But really don't get a tattoo on my word alone!

Weird to think we sound like Sumerian Yodas!

[santakku]

Most people today would pronounce 𒁲 as /di/.

[42below]

Thanks, santakku. I had to study both English and Russian in a structured way, so I understand the basics of grammar. I have also brushed up a lot on grammar as part of this journey. The MUGSAR stuff obviously has a lot of issues, but it's very user-friendly for a beginner like me to get the general gist of how stuff works.

I also wanted to check the about the sa6 you are referring to. It is listed as sha6 here: etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/png/SHA6.png
And also mainly as sag9 here: psd.museum.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/distprof?cfgw=sag[good]&res=apm&eid=e4637

So I'm a bit worried as to whether sa6 would really be pronounced as "sa", as opposed to "sha" or "sung" (as in sing, sang, sung".

[42below]

Aug 3, 2016 10:15:21 GMT -5 santakku said:

Most people today would pronounce 𒁲 as /di/.

Thanks, that's clear.

[42below]

Hi santakku,

I just wanted to check - what was the reason you chose to not use the verb "to thrive"/"to grow abundantly" that I had mentioned ("gu2 mar-mar" or "gu2me-er-me-er")?

psd.museum.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/distprof?cfgw=gu%20mer[thrive]&res=aaa&eid=e1826



or



Would it be wrong to use it in the sense that I intended? I would prefer it to the "imposing victory" meaning that you have. Mainly because a victory for one implies a defeat for another. Whereas thriving (e.g. like a plant) does not.

42

[sheshki]

The picture you posted looks like Persian cuneiform.
I personally prefer the signs from around the time of Gudea for my tattoos.



No worries, the red is cherry juice.

[nemequm]

This is just an opinion and not very scholarly one, but if I were 42below, I would use just any cuneiform characters I'd like to, even though they'd have more common spellings than those intended. I understand the point of choosing 'normal' spelling like some people are suggesting, but

- many many characters had many different spellings. It's completely normal for an assyriologist to read something wrong at first
- so even if you'd meet somebody reading cuneiform, I think s/he couldn't say to you "oh, that name have to be Disha, you spelled it in a stupid way". if somebody would say so, s/he would have to say it to all the old scribes would have failed, too
- and most likely not many people will be able to read it anyway

Awesome that you're so interested to write reasonable things to your tattoo!

PS. if you wonder which kind of font to use, google real Sumerian cuneiform tablets and find style you think has something to do with them

[santakku]

Hi, sorry to have been away the past few days. I think we're getting somewhere here though - I completely agree that you will have to choose what you prefer and accept some compromises. The only way around sign ambiguity is context and convention - neither of which exist when tattooing modern names.

I avoided "flourish" as I didn't know for sure whether it could be used idiomatically or whether you would end up saying "change in order to sprout"(!). You could check the semantic range for the verb, or translate literally regardless of Sumerian idiom. So, /gu2 mar-mar/ could work. The sentence would be:

gu2 mu-ub-mar-mar-e-še3 šu du11-ba

(I think...)

If you find a style you like, I'd be happy to collect examples of the signs you need.

[us4-he2-gal2]

Sorry to have been slow posting here, I had to finish and submit a thesis in recent weeks. I am puzzling over your requested motto 42below - as santakku said, two different Sumerian professors would certainly give you two different solutions, and would probably be pulling their hair out trying to formulate it properly. That said I will post shortly about it.


I would like to add my voice to the recommendation that you move away from MUGSAR, not that you are bound to them per se. I notice that they continually bad mouth academia and particularly Oxford, they attempt to erode your trust in these institutions, I have seen this tactic many times before. Its not that academia cannot be critisized. But coming from MUGSAR, or from Z. Sitchen, or the like, it is an attempt to discredit the only ones who can oppose their fraudulent claims. As Sheshki mentions, their translations of Sumerian are entirely incorrect, unfortunately.


I must also commend you on phrasing your questions in a very informed and perceptive way, this is of course extremely difficult to do for the layman, understandably so, but you've done it! Perhaps after this tattoo is done with, you should stick around and keep learning. We can provide you with any material for the study of Mesopotamian culture / language.


P.S. Before going for the ink job, whenever you decide you are done with preparing, please do post a version of the tattoo for final checking.

[us4-he2-gal2]

Lexical Considerations:

So before moving to questions of grammar, I thought I would make a contribution to the lexical problems here. I have mainly utilized the Leipzig-Munich Zettelkasten, freely available here. I also use the ETCSL website and have examined the various phrases that have been translated 'to thrive.' In fact, there are numerous verbal phrases in Sumerian which can merit the English translation 'to thrive.'

• In Gudea's Temple Building t.2.1.7 line 172 there is šu....mu2
  
  172. the warrior will make the house thrive (?) for you."
  
  172. šu ma-ra-ni-ib2-mu2-mu2
  
  
  Here we have a compound verb (šu + the verbal base: mu2). According to Thomsen's Grammar, the verb can mean 'to enlarge, to expand' with infix -ni, without that infix it can mean instead 'to pray'. Therefore, its possible that the warrior may be enlarging the house, another way of saying that is to 'make it thrive' but this is not necessarily preferable.
• In Nanše t.4.14.1 there is a similar verb on line 33 šu..peš:
  
  Lagaš thrives in abundance in the presence of Nanše.
  
  33. dnanše lagaški-a ḫe2-ĝal2-la šu mu-un-da-an-peš-e
  
  Here the translation "to thrive" comes from the compound verb šu....peš, which is formed of the elements šu (hand) + peš "thick" and together the verb can mean 'to spread' 'to expand' and here ETCSL translate 'to thrive' which is possible, but not necessary.

Examining gu2 mar-mar

The original verb suggested, gu2 mar-mar, is perhaps still the most desirable one. First I will attempt to remove the confusion or the ambiguity that may ensue from the fact the the signs gu2 mar-mar may be used to spell two entirely different verbs.


Reading 1 - gu2 mar-mar as "to submit": The Sumerian scribe sometimes used these signs, gu2 mar-mar, when he was actually spelling the verb gu2 ğar which means 'to submit.' This verb is a compound composed of the elements gu2 "neck" + ğar "to place" (its meaning is thus predictable). According to the entry for ğar at ePSD, we see that the mar sign can stand for ğar (this is because ğ is a "nasalized consonant" meaning, it sounds a little like m or n). In Enki and the World Order, t.1.1.0, line 110, gu2 mar-mar is used to write the verb gu2 ğar "to submit." However, this does not mean that these signs were not also used to write the verb you want, "to thrive" see reading 2.


Reading 2 - gu2 mar-mar "to thrive": In all likelihood, the verb underlying this writing is actually gu2 mer-mer, as can be seen at the ePSD entry (search "thrive")
it is sometimes written phonetically me-er-me-er, as was noted above. But you can use the signs mar-mar to approximate this, as the ancient scribes did so as well. While we know gu2 meant "neck" the meaning of "mer" by itself seems uncertain to modern scholarship, it is only apparent that gu2 + mar-mar(mer-mer) is "to thrive". From the ePSD entry, you can click the "see ETCSL" link at the bottom, which results in the following list of 10 texts which gu2 mar-mar occurs in:

To examine a few of these examples:

• Example 1: t.2.4.1.2 A tigi to Enlil for Ur-Namma (Ur-Namma B)
  
  "..made Sumer flourish in joy, in days filled with prosperity."
  
  15. ki-en-gi-re ud nam-ḫe2-a ak
  16. asila gu2 mu-un-di-ni-ib-mar-re
  
• Example 2: t.2.4.1.7 A balbale to Enlil for Ur-Namma
  
  9. "Ur-Namma, may the people flourish in prosperity under your rule."
  
  ^dur-^dnamma uğ3-e nam-ḫe2-a gu2 ḫu-mu-u8-di-ib-mar-re
• Example 3: t.4.27.02 Ninurta's Journey to Eridu
  
  "to see that vegetation should grow lushly in the spacious land."
  
  10. [ki] /dağal/-la u2-šim giri17-zal gu2 me-er-me-re-de3
  

So we see that the verb may be written with gu2..mar (examples 1 and 2) or gu2 mer (as seen in example 3). Another question is should the verbal base be reduplicated, i.e. should it be mar or mar-mar (mer or mer-mer)? Without getting into the technicalities of reduplication, we can note that in 8 out 10 examples from ETCSL, it is reduplicated (mar-mar / mer-mer) and so this should be adapted for the tattoo.

So we can note about gu2 mar-mar that when used in the context of nations or people (Example 1 and 2) it makes them "flourish". You could just as easily translate "thrive" these are two English words translating the same ancient verb, using one or another English term is at the translators discretion. As for example 3, the object is vegetation. The translator chose the English "grow lushly" to approximate the verbal meaning here; for the Sumerian, one verb and perhaps one concept applies to both human and vegetable (or not - in English verbs can be borrowed from one milieu and used in another, i.e. growing, maturing etc.).









....


As for šu dug4 'to transform' this seems like a good choice as well. So next I will look at the grammar.

[santakku]

That exactly the lexical stuff we needed! Can't wait to see your grammar attempt.

[42below]

Thanks all! Am loving the detail on this.
I am entirely comfortable with a verb that means thrive/floursish in both the human and plant sense. For what are all of us if not branches on the tree of humanity and life in general?

Am looking forward to the grammar piece and thoughts on the "transform/adapt" verb.

I will most certainly post a "draft" tattoo design here before getting inked.

42

[42below]

Also, I posted the below question earlier for santakku, but I think it got lost in the verb discussion.

"I also wanted to check about the sa6 you are referring to. It is listed as sha6 here: etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/png/SHA6.png
And also mainly as sag9 here: psd.museum.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/distprof?cfgw=sag[good]&res=apm&eid=e4637

So I'm a bit worried as to whether sa6 would really be pronounced as "sa", as opposed to "sha" or "sung" (as in sing, sang, sung".

Any thoughts? Thanks

42

[us4-he2-gal2]

Hello all, 42below, santakku -






I have done some research on the problem of how to say 'in order to thrive' using our chosen verb gu2 mar-mar. The other part of the sentence can follow in subsequent posts. This was challenging as I have never attempted to use this word formation in Sumerian, and you don't see it all that often, it is referred to as a "purpose clause" in the grammars. I consulted Thomsen 1987 and Jagersma 2011, the later grammar can be downloaded for free here.


My suggestion at the moment is to use the following signs: gu2 mar-mar-de3 = "in order to thrive." This suggestion does differ somewhat from what santakku suggested earlier, I think he may have gone for the terminative marker še which can render a purpose of a sort (see Jagersma 7.8.1) + e (directive). The directive case is certainly required (in Jagersma's terminology) but perhaps not the še. So perhaps we get even closer to a true purpose clause following the discussions that I will summarize below. First I will give Thomsen's take on things, then Jagersma's; the author's interpretations of Sumerian differ somewhat and their terminology is also distinct, however, in the end, the interpretation of both authors seem to lead us to the same solution: gu mar-mar-de3 (note that the spelling de3 is understood to contain the elements ed-e):

[santakku]

Yes, directive /-e/ may work better than /-sze/ - it is more common now that you mention it, though I'm sure I got /-sze/ from somewhere or other. And I agree that the /d/ would crop up with a vocalic ending - so gu2 mar-mar-de3 is good. Would you want an additional /e/ infix for the conjugation? I think you would see it written with or without, but just from a grammatical point of view would you include one?

I would pronounce 𒊷 as /sa/, but I'm not Sumerian! Wikipedia (from Borger?) "has 𒊷 SA6 (SHA6 bad!)", but pretty sure you could find those who disagree. The sign can probably be used for either, with modern scholars arguing over the phonology of each lexeme, hence the different readings.

[us4-he2-gal2]

Problem with the word šu dug4:




So I have been considering the word šu dug4, I am first concerned with the lexical issues associated with the term before moving to questions of grammar.


I have come to think that the ePSD entry for šu dug4, which gives the basic meaning "transform" and more specifically "to turn into something" is a bit off. Based on these entries however, I could see why you would select this word and intend a nuance of 'to evolve' 42below.


After examining some material at the ETCSL, the meaning of the verb seems extremely vague, it is a compound verb composed of the elements "hand" + "to speak" ..as Attinger 1993 had noted, it is a verb that heavily depends on context for a translation. The Sumerian Zettlekasten pdf p.627 gives two translations of the verb: "die Hand an jmd. legen" (Lending/laying a hand to someone); and "poser/tendre la main" (give a hand). These translations have a nuance of helping through work, and if any transformation occurs, it is through the work of the hands. This is in line with the elements of the compound verb itself, hand + speech is to command the hand, in its more literal sense.


Looking at some examples at the ETCSL we see:



1. A šir-namšub to Inana (Inana I) [ETCSL t.4.07.9]

ga-ša-an-ğen šu dug4-ga [^dnu-dim2-mud-da-ğen]

"I am the queen created by Nudimmud"



2. A hymn for Šu-Šuen [ETCSL t.2.4.4.a]

šu dug-ga an za-gin3-na-kam

"creation of lustrous An"


3. The Lament for Sumer and Urim [t.2.2.3]

241. ^ğišğišnimbar-gin7 šu nu-dug4-ga-me-a a-na-aš mu-e-gul-gul-lu-ne

241. Why do they destroy us like palm trees which we have not tended?




In examples 1-2, šu dug4 is translated with a nuance of 'to create' that is, by the work of the hands something changed from none existence to existence. In example 3, it šu dug4 is taken to mean 'to tend' in relation to palm trees, in any case reflecting some work with you do with your hands.



The question is whether this verb can be taken as having the concepts 'adapt' 'transform' or 'evolve' within its semantic range. It can certainly mean 'change' or 'alter (by means of the hands)" but I think it could also by used in the sense of "alter" just in the abstract sense. One suggestion I would make is that perhaps we should add the word "self" to this equation, i.e. šu dug4 + self .. this may give more of the intended nuance than šu dug4 alone. What do you think 42below?