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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Mar 20, 2008 17:07:18 GMT -5
Reviewing "Inanna: Queen of Heaven and Earth"
Wolkstein and Kramer: Because numerous people are taken with this book (Inanna: Queen of Heaven and Earth, Wolkstein, 1983), and I am unhesitating willing to defame something in interests of good scholarship and communal progress, I am here taking the opportunity to be skeptical once and for all. This book was a 1983 collaboration of Diane Wolkstein, a reputed folklorist and gifted storyteller, S.N. Kramer (who for 2 years forwarded new translations of Inanna texts to Wolkstein) and its illustrations were provided by a skilled ANE art historian, Elisbeth Williams Forte. I am not typically interested in Inanna, however with all the buzz this book seems to get I may have been tempted to buy a copy - except one day I read over a few pages of Kramers autobiography ("In the World of Sumer, 1987) in which the author reflects on this two year collaboration . A first warning sign appears on pg. 232, Kramer states: "This cooperative effort began with mutual admiration and cordial harmony; I am sorry it ended on a note of disagreement and disappointment for me. "Kramer specifies some particular issues on pg. 233: "One chapter, entitled "Interpretations of Inanna's Stories and Hymns,' was added without my approval. This chapter is a hodge-podge of pseudo-metaphysicas, Jungian psychology, kabbalistic occultism, sexual symbolism, far-fetched midrashhic interpretations, and superficial analogies. It is not a chapter to my taste, and I did not expect to have it in a book bearing my name. But all this does not detract in any way from my high, appreciative regard for the brave, ambitious, vindictive, lovable and desirable Inanna, the goddess who helped launch me on my Sumerological career. " In less eloquent words: "Arrrggg - you idiot." I find Kramers feeling for the goddess a fascinating side note in any case and is not the only such expression in his auto-biography. Cooper's Review in BA 1984
To add some additional perspective on this book, I have also took some notes from J.S. Coopers review of this book in the periodical Biblical Archeologist 1984. Some key criticisms Cooper makes are: "Wolkstein's contribution is problematic. The selection of Inanna texts was hers, and because she had begun the volume in quest of an "inspiration, guide, model," she deliberately omitted one of the most important aspects of Inanna: She is the goddess of war...... ...... And might there not be be an unconscious bit of sexual discrimination at work in the mind of a storyteller who allows her heroine to be a girl, a lover, a mother, and a queen but not a warrior?..... Wolkenstein also misses another unpleasant aspect of Inanna that is evident in some of the texts she has selected. Inanna is power hungry and manipulative. Her acquisition of the me-the norms or powers of civilization-from the drunk Enki is but one example in Sumerian mythology of her unwillingness to be satisfied with the already considerable power with which she was originally endowed. And an unbiased reading of Inanna's Descent can only lead to the conclusion that Inanna went to the netherworld because, in the text's word, she "craved the Great Below," in addition to the "Great Above" which was already hers, and not, as Wolkstein suggests, in search of knowledge, or, as she suggests a few pages later, to be with her sister Ereshkigal who "had gone into labor and need to be reborn" [page 160). ....Wolkstein's commentary on the Inanna stories and hymns is unfortunately filled with misinterpretations and misunderstandings of things Sumerian, couched in a vocabulary heavily influenced by neo-Jungians, the human potential movement, and popstructuralism. The occasional insights are obscured by all-too-frequent interpretations that are utterly groundless...... "
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Post by xuchilpaba on Mar 20, 2008 20:31:46 GMT -5
Thank you! I agree. I knew something was up when Wolkenstein wrote in her intro about the goddess and says..
"I went on a search for moon goddess; [sic, Neopaganism] Ishtar, Mari, Diana, Isis, Hecate, Pasiphae, Selene, Brigit, Cybele,, the Shekinah, Lilith, Persephone, and Inanna.."
Um more than half those goddess she listed are not moon goddesses.
Then on her interpetation section she seems to devote alot of time to compring Inanna and Ereshkigal with Lilith. Excuse me, but Lilith is not that important of a figure in Sumerian lore & it should be the other way around.. But no, just like in alot of Neopaganism I see, Lilith has to compared to some goddes, constantly. Mostly Ereshkigal and Inanna. You don't see them comparing other demons or lil demons to gods and goddesses now do you? That would seem rather odd to me. It appears that Lilith herself thrives off of being compared to anothe goddess to be the "same as" the Goddess herself.
>she deliberately omitted one of the most important aspects of Inanna: She is the goddess of war
Damn it! Everybody omits this! I have to explain it to everyone. [That and that Inanna didn't just have female prostitutes serve her..] All they think is Inanna is of sex, sexuality, marriage, and love. And she most certainly is not. It pisses me off because in certain parts of Mesopotamia, Inanna was more valued in her fearsome war aspect. I thought being a female warrior was more feminist than being value for your childbirthing and sex role, but w/e.
Man, I really need to write that article on why I believe Inanna to be a feminist role model.
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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Mar 21, 2008 11:54:25 GMT -5
Inanna is a difficult deity to sum, elusive in some ways in that it's a mistake to focus one aspect of her persona at the expense of another - and yet milennia of change and of cultural development loan this goddess such differing aspects and to look at them broadly is almost to loose any sense of coherent character. I prefer to focus on Inanna in Sumerian myth in particular and from here it shouldn't be overlooked that her character can evenly be described as deeply irresponsible, self-centered and power hungry.
In a few words un-balanced, unfaithful (to anyone else), unfruitful. I don't think these examples represent worthy philosophical notions of progressive action to anyone - male or female.
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Post by xuchilpaba on Mar 21, 2008 16:38:26 GMT -5
LOL. I know you don't know too much of what I see the myth as being. But i think its worse that Lilith is a role model for feminists now days... yeah, I don't understand why someone whose one of their primary targets is women is considered "feminist". I won't even get to the othr details of that flawed logic.
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Post by madness on Mar 21, 2008 22:27:39 GMT -5
The feminist appreciation of Lilith would probably stem from her rejection of Adam "Why should I lie beneath you - I am your equal!"
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Post by us4-he2-gal2 on Mar 21, 2008 22:35:17 GMT -5
"LOL. I know you don't know too much of what I see the myth as being."
Don't mean to say my understanding of the Inanna myths is the only one. Feel welcome to present some of other food for thought, as ever, its whats academically viable that matters, not who said it.
" But i think its worse that Lilith is a role model for feminists now days..."
In the Mesopotamian context espcially, thats like saying a good role model for men is cancer.
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Post by xuchilpaba on Mar 22, 2008 18:10:30 GMT -5
Don't mean to say my understanding of the Inanna myths is the only one. Feel welcome to present some of other food for thought, as ever, its whats academically viable that matters, not who said it. yeah I'll talk to you on YIM about it. I understand your understanding of feminism is very limited. I think I would have to explain and have too much to say for this thread. Another good quote! I could use it somewhere... The feminist appreciation of Lilith would probably stem from her rejection of Adam "Why should I lie beneath you - I am your equal!" Yes. It comes from the Romantic artist Rossetti's interpetation of the myth. However, its been taking out of Rosetti's context(who admitted to it being modern and not reflective of ancient/religious Lilith myths.) and has been interpetated in the modern world as Lilith must have been a feminist since the beginng in her original myths and we are all to respect her. Despite the fact that this is a demon who especially harms women, children, and loves to pick up drops of semen from men who copulate off the floor to impregnate herself with. Doesn't sound like a "feminist" to me....  |
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david
dubĝal (scribes assistent)
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Post by david on Mar 24, 2008 14:26:54 GMT -5
Then on her interpetation section she seems to devote alot of time to compring Inanna and Ereshkigal with Lilith. Excuse me, but Lilith is not that important of a figure in Sumerian lore & it should be the other way around.. But no, just like in alot of Neopaganism I see, Lilith has to compared to some goddes, constantly. Mostly Ereshkigal and Inanna. You don't see them comparing other demons or lil demons to gods and goddesses now do you? That would seem rather odd to me. It appears that Lilith herself thrives off of being compared to anothe goddess to be the "same as" the Goddess herself. It does annoy me too, when people will Lilith is the same as (or more usually) "a maiden" of Inanna or that depictions of a God are actually Lilith, like, I can't remember exactly where, but I read one site or maybe book where they said Lilith was Ereshkigal or something like that (it's been awhile since I saw it so I might not be remembering it properly). Personally, I think Lilith probably likes the fact people might confuse her with 2 very powerful Gods (and make no mistake, they are definantly very powerful, both, for example, have the ability to raise the dead and let them loose on the living, etc). That said, I do think Lilith is a Goddess now, I believe she's evolved into one, in this era, she seems to have grown in power and influence (I think there's a Kabbalistic interpretation that she is also the consort of YHWH, while the Shekinah is away in exile, which would give her quite a bit of power), but that's my own personal view of her, I don't use pseudo-history like some neo-Pagans do or try and make her into something she's not (e.g. "maiden" of Inanna or even Inanna herself, etc). I've read that in ancient Mesopotamia, war was seen as the "dance of Inanna", and she was also one of the few Sumerian Gods to receive human sacrifice, and yes, many neo-Pagans wouldn't want to learn that, which is a shame 'cause without knowing all aspects of a God (or all the aspects you can know), you probably won't get closer to the God. You definantly should, it would really help people, especially if you do it without using the normal stuff you read about on neo-Pagan sites and/or books. BTW, this is OT, but I think on Tablets, you mentioned that you were doing a site on Samuel, how's that coming along?. |
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Post by xuchilpaba on Mar 24, 2008 17:05:31 GMT -5
Personally, I think Lilith probably likes the fact people might confuse her with 2 very powerful Gods (and make no mistake, they are definantly very powerful, both, for example, have the ability to raise the dead and let them loose on the living, etc). Yeah thats the gist I was getting. In fact I think she is a parasittic entity like this. Intresting you bring this up. Me and Ed had a great convo about this on TOD awhile bac ad Ed made a startlng proposle that I believe to be true about Lilith. The Matronit goes into exile and Yaweh takes Lilith as his consort... It says that Lilith was originally a handmaiden of the Matronit and a slave.(It also says that the handmaiden isn't supposed to replace her mistress as Lilith has done.) If one adds up the fact that Lilith would have been a slave to the Sumerian gods, combined with the fact that Lilith was the handmaiden of Inanna/Ishtar for a while, it starts to sound eerily familer. Long story short. God boots Lilith and she goes out and screams in the desert until the sun comes up. Now it says of Lilith that she tries to replace the female side of God, the Matronit/Shekinah, who is her rival. Not only does Lilith try to replace God's female side, she also derives a majority of her power by keeping God's female half from himself. This is all in the Zohar. I told this to Ed about the similarities and Ed said something.. After I said that I think this is the reason that we always see Lilith in Neopaganism as the same as Inanna or a older goddess, (Notice the whole Lilith sha-bang only works monotheistically too. By saying shes the same as this and this goddess.) he replied that the Burney relief that everyone popularly thinks is Lilith is comparitive of her replacing the Matronit too. Now I live by this. Its creepy, but I think its true. IDK how to use front page for the life of me. And no one will teach me. I have enough articles I, myself, have written, but I also have a bunch on Samael thats enought to start it. |
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david
dubĝal (scribes assistent)
Posts: 43
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Post by david on Mar 25, 2008 14:13:21 GMT -5
Yeah thats the gist I was getting. In fact I think she is a parasittic entity like this. I think she the type of being who wants power for herself, and will get it through whatever channels are available to her. Personally, I do kind like her, in that I really want to learn more about her mythology and her appearances in Jewish folklore (I think it was you who recommended 'Lilith's Cave: Tales of the Jewish Supernatural', which I think I'll be getting soon, as Jewish folklore is definitely something I'm interested in and want to learn more about). That is quite creepy, I'll have to see if I can find those posts on Tablets as it sounds an interesting conversation. Although I think there'd be some neo-Pagans who'd be angry at you for even suggesting that (and probably accuse you of being part of the patriarchy or something like that). I don't really know how to use it either (I made one site in school, but that was for a project and I can't remember some of the instructions). Here are some how to guides I found: www.developingwebs.net/frontpage/viking.coe.uh.edu/~smarsh/fp2003/There's a few more sites here: www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=Using+Frontpage&meta= I'm not sure how good the rest are, and also, if you want, I'll ask on another forum I'm on (it's a Pagan one, but they have a technology section, where a lot of more computer-literate people than me are) and see if they can provide any help. Samuel definitely is a very interesting being (actually, there's quite a few interesting and cool beings in Jewish mythology and folklore, IMO, I think Judaism has a great mythology). |
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Post by xuchilpaba on Mar 25, 2008 16:19:17 GMT -5
The Neopagans can kiss my ass. They read the Zohar too and like to boast on and on about her brief stint with God. The Zohar says it, we added to what we saw here in the modern world that seemed, well rather off and conciedently the same as the Zohar passage. (i also find that accepting Lilith as Adam's wife, and therefore a person and then worshipping her above a god and claiming she is one.. well its paradixing. If you worship Lilith you are admitting to a higher power greater than herself and what created her. Therefore, you aren't straying too far from Abrahamic religion.)
Yes, thank you very much. I'll look over these when I have time.
You'll love Lilith's cave, btw. Especially if you're into horror.
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