On Fiction and Literature

[nocodeyv]

Administrator's edit:: I have transferred a lengthy exchange here from our Introductions thread between new member Mike and several others, because the exchange was interesting and brought up questions which may be further discussed below. - Bill


Copy of Mike's Introduction post:


"Just a quick note to explain why I'm here:

I got interested in ancient Mesopotamia about a year ago - so I'm no kind of expert. Partly as a result of that interest, I began to write a novel late last year (it's reached about 60,000 words so far) which uses Sumerian/Babylonian myths - chiefly The Descent of Inanna - as a framework and symbolic focus. I'm currently wrestling with the challenge of incorporating the Akitum Festival in the novel. I do, however, have a wider interest in Sumer, Akkad, Babylonia and Assyria, which I think will continue after the novel is finished.

I arrived at this forum today because I was trying to follow up on a hint I read somewhere that cuneiform signs had a magical significance underlying their more mundane uses for communication. However, I know next to nothing about that and I may be completely mistaken.

(I should point out, perhaps, that my interest in magic is novelistic rather than mystical.)

I haven't even skimmed the surface of enenuru yet, but it seems a valuable and exciting resource.

Since I see the site primarily as a research tool, I may not be very active in discussion in the future. I still feel diffident about my limited knowledge. But at least you now know who I am and why I'm here.

Thanks for having me. It's an impressive site."









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Jun 8, 2015 2:30:02 GMT -5 mike said:

I began to write a novel late last year (it's reached about 60,000 words so far) which uses Sumerian/Babylonian myths - chiefly The Descent of Inanna - as a framework and symbolic focus. 

Welcome Mike!

A novel with Mesopotamian themes? Sounds very interesting! Last time I read anything of the sort, it was Stephan Grundy's novel, Gilgamesh. If/when you finish, and if you can find a publisher, I'd be very keen on reading your book.

The Descent Myth is a very interesting one, and one of my favorites. I even took the time to cobble together a "full" version of the myth—borrowing significantly from other love-songs and disappearing god myths to fill in the blank spaces—just so that I could get a feel for the wealth of material the cycle must have contained over time.

I also joined Enenuru to use it as a research resource. A lot of the time my replies to threads would simply be "this is interesting" or "thanks for giving me some new angles to explore," but once in a while I'll stumble upon one where I feel I actually have something to say that the good folks here haven't covered yet. Those are good moments.

[us4-he2-gal2]

Hello Mike - Welcome to enenuru. Feel free to post or ask questions, no need to be any sort of expert. As a novelist you have probably heard of or read Snow Crash which is highly praised and takes inspiration from Mesopotamia (I haven't read it, but nonetheless). As for writing Mesopotamian themed fiction, our member Ummia is an determined and eccentric example, his area is here:

enenuru.proboards.com/board/17/ummia-authentic-fiction


About cuneiform having a magic quality in and of itself... yes I would agree with that to an extent. It could be over stated, it could be under stated. Scholars sometimes describe something like this when they consider something like the Stele of Hammurabi (also 'Hammurabi's law code' google image search if you haven't seen it). So a large stone object full of cuneiform that most likely would have been set up in a public place to be witnessed by all - but why? The public couldn't read at all in those days. It is at this point when you sometimes hear scholarly explanations like 'the power and even magical property of cuneiform writing itself was enough to impress the public' to paraphrase, although this comes across as somewhat ad hoc to me. Some arguments may be made on the basis of protective amulets although those can also contain images. As for the practice of magic itself in Mesopotamia, at least exorcism (the only type of magic we really know about) this was based on the spoken recitation of incantations and enactment of rituals, these things were written down in cuneiform of course (how we know about them at all) but the reason here is for more administrative (to enable the transmission of relevant knowledge among the professional class). So I think there is something to the power even magical power of cuneiform writing itself, in practice this is quite difficult to demonstrate however.

[enkur]

Welcome Mike. It's praiseworthy when the historic, or mythological fiction is based on actual research. However even this isn't sufficient to make the narrative authentic if the author isn't empathic enough with the matter to make a true channeling but uses it just to prove his or her own idea. Such is the case with "Snow Crash". Otherwise Neal Stephenson is a good author for me. Nothing wrong to prove one's own idea via some ancient myth but one needs to update one's sources' database. Some scholars as Kramer and Jacobsen though insightful, could be misleading in their general interpretations. Me myself have stagged the myth of Inanna's descent on a certain underground stage and you can see a teaser of it in the Gallery. It was my own interpretation based only on the available original Sumerian and Babylonian texts without allowing to be influenced by any authority on the subject.

[mike]

Thanks very much for the welcome messages, nocodeyv, us4-he2-gal2 (are those cuneiform sign designations? - '()- be he/it - great', perhaps?) and enkur. In fact, I hadn't heard of Neal Stephenson's 'Snow Crash'. Thanks for mentioning it. I will take a look at it, but not until after I've finished my own book. I'm always afraid of a kind of contamination by other authors' ideas (perhaps I mean inadvertent plagiarism) when I'm in the middle of writing something.

I had heard of Stephan Grundy's 'Gilgamesh', I think - but, again, I've never read it.

Inanna is a remarkable figure. 'The Descent' is perhaps the most haunting myth I know. I'll certainly be looking around to see what you've all been doing.

[enkur]

Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" is about Enki's alleged confusion of the languages based on Samuel Kramer's interpretative translation of the incantation of Nudimmud (lines 136-155 in the text "Enmerkar and the lord of Aratta" ). The action takes places in the cybernetic future where the protagonist discovers how Enki had once destroyed the linguistic system of the Anunnaki which kept humanity in slavery. Inanna is presented as a positive character while Ninhursag as a negative one. For me it's just another contemporary distortion of the Sumerian mythology along with Sitchin's and Necronomicon's ones. I really long to read some good fiction on the subject, something which sounds authentic. By authenticity I mean the mythological characters understood as they are via empathy and then allowed to act by themselves. Of course we couldn't be sure how authentic are the available written sources - mostly from the Old Babylonian period and the imperial phase of Sumer when the scribes kept more to the political theology of the priesthood rather than to the living traditions at the time.

[hukkana]

Jun 10, 2015 5:35:01 GMT -5 enkur said:

Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" is about Enki's alleged confusion of the languages based on Samuel Kramer's interpretative translation of the incantation of Nudimmud (lines 136-155 in the text "Enmerkar and the lord of Aratta" ). The action takes places in the cybernetic future where the protagonist discovers how Enki had once destroyed the linguistic system of the Anunnaki which kept humanity in slavery. Inanna is presented as a positive character while Ninhursag as a negative one. For me it's just another contemporary distortion of the Sumerian mythology along with Sitchin's and Necronomicon's ones. I really long to read some good fiction on the subject, something which sounds authentic. By authenticity I mean the mythological characters understood as they are via empathy and then allowed to act by themselves. Of course we couldn't be sure how authentic are the available written sources - mostly from the Old Babylonian period and the imperial phase of Sumer when the scribes kept more to the political theology of the priesthood rather than to the living traditions at the time.

Huh, I'm reading "Enmerkar and the lord of Aratta" and the translation on etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk and it seems to say the opposite, going:

"Enki, the lord of abundance and of steadfast decisions, the wise and knowing lord of the Land, the expert of the gods, chosen for wisdom, the lord of Eridug, shall change the speech in their mouths, as many as he had placed there, and so the speech of mankind is truly one."

Also, welcome to Mike, I didn't notice your post there.

[us4-he2-gal2]

Hukkana: Yes, you are astute to point this out. Although, it is also the case that enkur does not misquote Snow Crash (and this book likely is faithful in presenting Kramer's personal interpretation). As far as I remember, there is indeed significant discord on the part of modern scholars in trying to determine whether the Sumerian states that Enki changes languages and makes them on or whether he did the opposite and split them up. It is a problem of interpretation.

[mike]

Jun 10, 2015 5:35:01 GMT -5 enkur said:

Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" ... For me it's just another contemporary distortion of the Sumerian mythology along with Sitchin's and Necronomicon's ones. I really long to read some good fiction on the subject, something which sounds authentic. By authenticity I mean the mythological characters understood as they are via empathy and then allowed to act by themselves. ...        

I doubt that my novel would meet your definition of authenticity. I'm using the Inanna/Ishtar myth complex - well, part of it - as a semi-symbolic and semi-comic focus, for a story that's set largely in 1930s England, though a few chapters 'visit' Hammurabi's Babylon. The novel is actually an exercise in genre mixing - something I've been interested in for some time - rather than an attempt at a fully accurate historical novel.

I think writing true historical fiction must always be challenging for an author. It's now a truism to say that all history is interpretation. History is the story a particular historian tells, as seen through the lens of his/her own time and specific preoccupations. So, in that sense, no historical period is authentically recoverable. But ancient Mesopotamia, I think, presents an especially hard problem, partly because, as you say "we couldn't be sure how authentic are the available written sources", but also because the culture is so alien to us.

It seems to me that interpretation of the myths is often very difficult, especially when it comes to issues of connotation and nuance. How exactly, for example, was Ereshkigal viewed in Sumer? Was she an absolute  scare figure, to be placated, or was she worshipped in some more positive way, as Inanna seems to have been, despite her often ambiguous status?

To give an example: The Descent ends rather puzzlingly for me with:

411-412. Holy Ereškigala -- sweet is your praise.

etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.4.1#

There seems to be an abrupt switch of focus away from Dumuzid, Geshtinanna and Inanna there. Is it possible that the entire Descent might originally have been interpreted as some kind of lesson about Erishkigal's power? If so, what kind of praise is meant? - All that's complete conjecture on my part, but I'm using the example to illustrate the possibility that we may read the surviving texts very differently from the way they were read or heard when embedded in the originating culture. Which means, of course, that 'recovering' a convincingly authentic sense of Sumer in a novel would be nigh-on impossible.

For me, the great freedom of fiction is precisely that it doesn't have to be true. Scholarship is much more difficult because it does have to try to reconcile interpretation with all known facts. Of course, fiction can often suggest seemingly viable interpretations, but it's a different kind of game from scholarship.

(I do recognise, though, that you may have meant something a little more nuanced by authentic.)

  

[hukkana]

Jun 10, 2015 13:25:45 GMT -5 mike said:

Jun 10, 2015 5:35:01 GMT -5 enkur said:

Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" ... For me it's just another contemporary distortion of the Sumerian mythology along with Sitchin's and Necronomicon's ones. I really long to read some good fiction on the subject, something which sounds authentic. By authenticity I mean the mythological characters understood as they are via empathy and then allowed to act by themselves. ...        

I doubt that my novel would meet your definition of authenticity. I'm using the Inanna/Ishtar myth complex - well, part of it - as a semi-symbolic and semi-comic focus, for a story that's set largely in 1930s England, though a few chapters 'visit' Hammurabi's Babylon. The novel is actually an exercise in genre mixing - something I've been interested in for some time - rather than an attempt at a fully accurate historical novel.

I think writing true historical fiction must always be challenging for an author. It's now a truism to say that all history is interpretation. History is the story a particular historian tells, as seen through the lens of his/her own time and specific preoccupations. So, in that sense, no historical period is authentically recoverable. But ancient Mesopotamia, I think, presents an especially hard problem, partly because, as you say "we couldn't be sure how authentic are the available written sources", but also because the culture is so alien to us.

It seems to me that interpretation of the myths is often very difficult, especially when it comes to issues of connotation and nuance. How exactly, for example, was Ereshkigal viewed in Sumer? Was she an absolute  scare figure, to be placated, or was she worshipped in some more positive way, as Inanna seems to have been, despite her often ambiguous status?

To give an example: The Descent ends rather puzzlingly for me with:

411-412. Holy Ereškigala -- sweet is your praise.

etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.4.1#

There seems to be an abrupt switch of focus away from Dumuzid, Geshtinanna and Inanna there. Is it possible that the entire Descent might originally have been interpreted as some kind of lesson about Erishkigal's power? If so, what kind of praise is meant? - All that's complete conjecture on my part, but I'm using the example to illustrate the possibility that we may read the surviving texts very differently from the way they were read or heard when embedded in the originating culture. Which means, of course, that 'recovering' a convincingly authentic sense of Sumer in a novel would be nigh-on impossible.

For me, the great freedom of fiction is precisely that it doesn't have to be true. Scholarship is much more difficult because it does have to try to reconcile interpretation with all known facts. Of course, fiction can often suggest seemingly viable interpretations, but it's a different kind of game from scholarship.

(I do recognise, though, that you may have meant something a little more nuanced by authentic.)

  

Well from a modern narrative standpoint the "plot" of Descent comes out of nowhere with Inanna just deciding she is going to invade the netherworld because. And then sacrificing her husband.

I assume the ending adress to Ereškigal is an expression of her power as a Goddess of the underworld which even the other gods can't defy, if I can give my humble estimate.

[sheshki]

A big hello to all new members.

[nocodeyv]

Jun 10, 2015 13:25:45 GMT -5 mike said:

It seems to me that interpretation of the myths is often very difficult, especially when it comes to issues of connotation and nuance. How exactly, for example, was Ereshkigal viewed in Sumer? Was she an absolute  scare figure, to be placated, or was she worshipped in some more positive way, as Inanna seems to have been, despite her often ambiguous status?

There seems to be an abrupt switch of focus away from Dumuzid, Geshtinanna and Inanna there. Is it possible that the entire Descent might originally have been interpreted as some kind of lesson about Erishkigal's power? If so, what kind of praise is meant? - All that's complete conjecture on my part, but I'm using the example to illustrate the possibility that we may read the surviving texts very differently from the way they were read or heard when embedded in the originating culture. Which means, of course, that 'recovering' a convincingly authentic sense of Sumer in a novel would be nigh-on impossible.

  

The following is, of course, only my personal interpretation of the Descent myth. And it's only really half-formed at that!

First, though he has a bit of a mixed reputation here on Enenuru, I do see a lot of truth to Thorkild Jacobsen's claims that Inanna and Dumuzi represent the date palm harvest, and that Inanna, specifically, represents the bountiful storehouse, while her lover represents the bounty. In his book "The Treasures of Darkness" Jacobsen sees Inanna's descent and imprisonment as a symbol for winter. This is a ubiquitous motif that shows up again and again in dying-and-rising figures across the Ancient Near East and Europe, of course.

Second, I believe that Ninšubur, Inanna's faithful minister, is, at least in the ritual drama, actually a representation of the Sumerian people. During the course of events Ninšubur has one real duty: appeal to the emotions of the Great Gods. She is told to weep in the streets for Inanna's absence, to pray that Nanna frees Inanna from the Netherworld, to beg Enlil to overturn the imprisonment, and to beseech Enki to do anything to help. If Inanna's imprisonment is symbolic of the winter scarcity, then Ninšubur is symbolic of the people's fear, depression, and hunger during hard winters.

Third, Ereškigal herself represents the "inverse" of Inanna. This is, in my mind, the most subjective element of the explanation. When Inanna is alive and well on the Earth, the Earth is bountiful and yields its fruit. When Inanna journeys to the Netherworld the Earth mourns and weeps. The question I asked myself was this: why is the Netherworld so full of harvest and fertility deities? Dumuzi, Geštin'ana, Inanna, Nanna, Ninazu, Ningišzida, Sumuqan, etc. Then I asked myself: why do almost all of these gods later ascend from the Netherworld?

The answer I arrived at was this: when the crops die on the Earth, they are actually "growing" downwards instead of upwards. Winter on the Earth is Summer in the Netherworld - their harvest season is our barren season. The praise for Ereškigal at the end of the drama, then, is because she is the "Inanna of the Netherworld," their "Queen of Heaven" if you will. I haven't gone so far as to say she IS Inanna, but she is at least Inanna's counterpart: the Blue Hag of Winter, who constantly contends with the Spring Green Brighid for the flora and fauna.

Fourth, and finally, we have Enki. Of all the places Ninšubur goes, Enki is the only one to take action. I have some personal theories (again, lacking scholarly support) for this. Nanna is a god of cattle, and the animal fecundity is in Inanna's hands according to the Babylonian version, where her absence causes the livestock to stop mating. Enlil is the god of agriculture and farming, this is, again, obviously in Inanna's domain as the "bountiful storehouse" that keeps the harvest safe. Neither Nanna nor Enlil can redeem Inanna, as their powers are, as well, stripped during the barren season. This leaves Enki.

Enki is the god of subterranean waters and, likely, has some connection to the Tigris, Euphrates, and Persian Gulf. The Sumerian people depended very highly on the floods of these rivers, guided by their canals, to water their fields and make their crops grow. In the original versions of the Descent, Enki creates two "sexless" beings which can bypass the Netherworld gates and "sprinkle" the food and water of life on Inanna, returning her to fecundity. Could these two "flies" be the Tigris and Euphrates, come to flood Inanna (the storehouse) with food and water?

The final portion then, to me, is Ereškigal's hand coming down. If Inanna leaves then the Netherworld will "starve," as she'll be taking all that is fruitful and fertile with her. The subsequent trade of Dumuzi and Geštin'ana, then, is a way of brokering peace. The living get the bountiful harvest for half the year, the dead for the other. When Dumuzi comes up, Geštin'ana goes down, and vice-versa.

To briefly summarize, here are the "actors" in the drama, as I see them:

• Inanna, the Earth's storehouse, goddess of the terrestrial harvest

• Ereškigal, the Netherworld storehouse, goddess of the subterranean harvest

• Ninšubur, the Sumerian people themselves, who "love" Inanna's offerings

• Nanna, the god of animal fecundity, which is stripped by Inanna's disappearance

• Enlil, the god of the harvest, which is stripped by Inanna's disappearance

• Enki, the god of flowing water and rejuvenation, who represents the start of Spring

• Sexless being one, the Tigris, brings the Water of Life

• Sexless being two, the Euphrates, bring the Food of Life

• Dumuzi, the grain harvest, made to spend half a year in each realm

• Geštin'ana, the vine harvest, made to spend half a year in each realm


Anyway, this is the first time I've really tried to express this before, so my apologies if it's disjointed or severely lacking in supporting sources! I felt inspired to share when you posed your questions and personal theories.

[enkur]

I understand your standpoint, Mike, and I think that nevertheless you're able to write something authentic which I would like to read. So I wish you inspiration and success.

Nocodeyv, I like your way of analyzing the myth, however there are two points which are to be taken into consideration in this respect.
First the Winter was not the season of death in Sumer and generally in Mesopotamia. It was the Summer with its murderous heat which represented the dead season in these latitudes. According to the calendar of Nibru which should have become the actual one during the Ur III period and later, it was the feast of NE.NE.GAR (Ne-izi-gar) during our July/August period which was the ghost feast when the dead were revered. The next one was called Kin Inanna during our August/September period when the resurrection of Inanna was celebrated. It was the time of Virgo according to our astrology which derives from the Babylonian Furrow constellation (MUL.AB.SIN in Sumerian) represented by the goddess Šala, whose symbol was a barley stalk - a period of renewal. Also, in "The debate between Winter and Summer" we see how Enlil categorically takes the side of the Winter: "Winter is controller of the life-giving waters of all the lands -- the farmer of the gods produces everything. Summer, my son, how can you compare yourself to your brother Winter?"
Second, though there aren't much evidences of something other as in Egypt, the Sumerian religion shouldn't be reduced to fertility and agriculture only. True, Jacobsen uses the term "numinous" to emphasize on the great religious respect the Sumerians held for these natural processes and human activities, but we should be cautious not to project the entirely pragmatic and materialist motive of our times unto the ancient mythologies. ( Here I mean the old school of victorian researchers like J. Frazer which has heavily influenced the modern thought.) Yet these are topics for threads other than this introduction one.

[mike]

nocodeyv

I read your analysis of the Descent yesterday, but didn't have time to reply. I'm impressed - and convinced by it in general.

I had read Jacobsen's theory about Dumuzi and Geshtinanna as vegetation gods, and Inanna as the spirit of the storehouse. The image of the eerie, empty, underground store does suggest the Netherworld to me. It contains a shiver of the uncanny.

My only reservation about Jacobsen's interpretation - and therefore, by extension, yours - is the historical issue. Given that the vegetation myths and symbols are likely to have emerged very early - quite possibly during the Neolithic - I wonder how directly available those origins were to Bronze Age Mesopotamians. In short, I think there's no way we can know with certainty how the myth was received and interpreted around 2,000 BC, for instance. (Unless, of course, a contemporary interpretive tablet eventually comes to light, which seems unlikely.)

That historical point may be reinforced by the apparent change over time in Dumuzi's status. The Descent and other Dumuzi-Inanna myths have him as a shepherd, and his eventual capture by Ereshkigal's minions involves destruction of the sheep fold and the dairy. So he seems to have shifted from vegetation god to a god of animal husbandry. That's unsurprising to me, in view of the vast tracts of time covered by Mesopotamian literature.

But, as I said, I'm very impressed by the convincing detail of your analysis; especially (though by no means exclusively) this:

In the original versions of the Descent, Enki creates two "sexless" beings which can bypass the Netherworld gates and "sprinkle" the food and water of life on Inanna, returning her to fecundity. Could these two "flies" be the Tigris and Euphrates, come to flood Inanna (the storehouse) with food and water?

[us4-he2-gal2]

Thread Orientation: I have transferred a lengthy exchange here from our Introductions thread between new member Mike and several others, because the exchange was interesting and brought up questions which may be further discussed below. - Bill


Copy of Mike's Introduction post:


"Just a quick note to explain why I'm here:

I got interested in ancient Mesopotamia about a year ago - so I'm no kind of expert. Partly as a result of that interest, I began to write a novel late last year (it's reached about 60,000 words so far) which uses Sumerian/Babylonian myths - chiefly The Descent of Inanna - as a framework and symbolic focus. I'm currently wrestling with the challenge of incorporating the Akitum Festival in the novel. I do, however, have a wider interest in Sumer, Akkad, Babylonia and Assyria, which I think will continue after the novel is finished.

I arrived at this forum today because I was trying to follow up on a hint I read somewhere that cuneiform signs had a magical significance underlying their more mundane uses for communication. However, I know next to nothing about that and I may be completely mistaken.

(I should point out, perhaps, that my interest in magic is novelistic rather than mystical.)

I haven't even skimmed the surface of enenuru yet, but it seems a valuable and exciting resource.

Since I see the site primarily as a research tool, I may not be very active in discussion in the future. I still feel diffident about my limited knowledge. But at least you now know who I am and why I'm here.

Thanks for having me. It's an impressive site."

[nocodeyv]

Thanks for moving this all over Bill.

I just want to reinforce that my post above is all theory at this point. I can only really support any of it, academically, with some of Jacobsen's writings, and I do agree that Mesopotamian myth and religion is infinitely more complex than simple seasonal metaphors and fertility cults.

The rest of my thoughts are purely speculative.

That's not to say that I'm not in some ways emotionally attached to them, of course. As a ritual drama I see the pieces lining up quite well, even if there are some elements I need to smooth out, like learning more about the inverted seasonal cycle of Mesopotamia compared to that of my own country.

None-the-less, I'm very open to discussion about it, even though I know it's not quite academic, by Enenuru standards.