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Post by enkur on May 9, 2011 10:57:11 GMT -5
Dionysos is also to be considered in respect of Ningishzidda.
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Post by lilitudemon on May 9, 2011 16:44:11 GMT -5
Why is that Enkur? I am curious to see the archeology.
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Post by enkur on May 10, 2011 4:58:17 GMT -5
That's a difficult question indeed. The classical Dionysos cult came to Greece about the 6- 5 century BCE via the Thracians, especially by those of them called Phrygians who settled in Asia Minor after the decline of the Hittite empire in 12 century BCE The Phrygians worshiped him by the name Sabazius. Though there are evidences that the name Dionysos derives from the Mycenaean Greeks and even from the Minoans in 15 - 11 centuries BCE, me, being a Thracian descendant, investigate the Anatolian connection. As I mentioned, prior to the Phrygians, the most of Anatolia was a territory occupied by an older Indo-European people called Hittites who adopted the Mesopotamian culture and used cuneiform signs. So I suppose some Hittite connection though I have no evidences yet. Paradoxically enough Phrygians saw Sabazius also as both heavenly warrior and chthonic serpent, as if St. George and his dragon in one We know from the classical Dionysos tradition he was a vegetable dying and resurrecting god whose symbols are all winding and climbing plants like the vine, the ivy, the liana etc. also the snakes and the panthers. The rest is my subjective association: He has appeared to me in an awesome vision with a body like a tree trunk, with arms-branches-snakes reaching the heaven, and with legs-roots-snakes going under the earth, with two panthers tearing his trunk-flesh so his sap-blood is running like currents of wine making everything drunk. He is screaming of ecstasy, of both pleasure and pain, and his scream is a song maddening all by its rhythm... I don't claim anything yet. Little is known about the Sumerian Ningishzidda. Yet for me the connection with the Hindu serpent god Naga is obvious. I intend to write a thread about the connection between Sumer and the Harappan civilization in India. Some attribute even a Hindu origin to Dionysos. Somehow the gods aren't apt to answer questions like "Where you come from?",or, when one is in an altered state of mind, such questions hardly occur to him. I wonder had the Sumerians any vine deity?
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Post by lilitudemon on May 10, 2011 7:44:08 GMT -5
Yes, the Hittites were the people of 1,000 gods and they adapted many Sumerian gods, from my brief learnings. So they would have most likely had Ningishzidha.
Have you read about python/pythias or the oracle of Delphi yet? This is what I am reminded of.
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Post by lilitudemon on May 10, 2011 8:09:16 GMT -5
Looking [briefly] at Hittite FAQ I see a reference to a snake god name Hedammu who "loved Ishtar", whatever that means.
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Post by enkur on May 10, 2011 17:10:25 GMT -5
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Post by enkur on Jul 14, 2011 9:55:06 GMT -5
To my previous wondering "had the Sumerians any vine deity?" I'm answering to myself: nGe$tin-an-na, given to her name. Why is nGe$tin-an-na often mentioned as a consort of Ningi$zidda? On which texts is based this proposition? According to "Enki and Ninhursag" myth, Ningi$zidda's consort is Azimua (another plant goddess of extremely interesting name:d a2-zi-mu2-a). The vine could wind around any tree as well as the ivy does. Is there any identified Sumerian word for ivy? I think it's impossible that the Sumerians didn't know the ivy, and weren't impressed thereby, or by some other representative of the genus Hedera. Hedera helix is a winding evergreen poisonous plant which was used in the Dionysian mysteries together with the wine.
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Post by enkur on Jul 19, 2011 3:10:24 GMT -5
In the context of my previous question "Why is nGe$tin-an-na often mentioned as a consort of Ningi$zidda?" there is a quotation in the first page of the same thread: www.enenuru.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=expel&action=display&thread=100&page=1Mr. Yoshikawa's Contribution to the Ningishzida thread Gudea, Statue M (&N): II 1)d ge$tin-an-na 2) nin-a-bi-mu-a 3) dam-ki-ag 4) d nin-gi$-zi-da-ka 5)nin-a-ni III, 1) gu-de-a Would somebody be so kind to translate it and comment thereon? I'm afraid the numeration of the cuneiform signs is missed in this transliteration as well. Is it possible that nin-a-bi-mu-a could be a mistake for d nin-a2-zi-mu2-a ? (Though I see there is no d determinative before it.)
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Post by enkur on Jul 20, 2011 9:07:27 GMT -5
An answer to my question: Translation: Gudea, city ruler of Lagash, built to Geshtinanna, the queen a-azi-mu-a, the beloved wife of Ningishzida, his queen, her temple in Girsu. He created for her [this] statue. "She granted the prayer," he gave it a name for her and brought it into her temple.Found in: www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Arts/scultpurePlastic/SculptureHistory/MesopotamiaArt/Mesopotamia/Gudeaoflagash/Gallery.htmSo it comes out that nGe$tin-an-na = nin a-azi-mu-a ? The inscription of Ninazimua's name (the second column from right to left) is not very clear to my untrained eye for cuneiform signs different than those in the ePSD but I can see that after the nin sign there follows a sign and not the a2 sign as in the ETCSL transliteration of "Enki and Ninhursaga" (lines 267 and 278) which read d a2-zi-mu2-a. I can recognize the last signs as mu2 and a but it seems that the first part of mu2 merges with zi and probably the sign after nin-a- is some older form of a2?
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Post by enkur on Jul 20, 2011 9:16:09 GMT -5
Since the images do not appear I'm attaching them. Attachments:
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Post by enkur on Jul 20, 2011 9:17:58 GMT -5
The statue itself. Attachments:
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Post by enkur on Jul 27, 2011 15:36:28 GMT -5
This dictionary oracc.museum.upenn.edu/etcsri/cbd/qpn/N.htmlgives d nin-izi-mu₂-a instead of nin-a-azi-mu2-a, so azi = izi (fire, brazier in the ePSD) and now it becomes more probably for me that the questionable cuneiform sign from Gudea statue's inscription is an older form of izi sign Is that another writing for the goddess's name d a2-zi-mu2-a from lines 267 and 278 from "Enki and Ninhursagga"? Though izi as fire doesn't suit well Enki's progeny of vegetable deities. Or, are Geshtinanna, Ninizimua and Azimua different names for the same goddess? Maybe in the case of "Enki and Ninhursagga" a2 is used to make pun with Enki's ill arm ( a2) ? What do you think, dubsargal Sheshki?
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Post by sheshki on Jul 27, 2011 16:24:26 GMT -5
Well, Enkur, im not sure about the different names (they probably all belong to one deity, also possible that nin-a-bi-mu-a is more a title then a name, because NIN means queen), but i do know that the sign you have here is NE. I checked the ETCSL signlist and these are the values the sign has: bar7, be7, bi2, bil, de3, du17, gibil4, izi, kum2, lam2, lem4, li9, ne, ni5, pel, pil, saḫarx, šeĝ6 Maybe nininimzue knows more about this! Here is the signlist. etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/signlist.phpAnd here is an older version of NE, from an Gudea inscription
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Post by enkur on Jul 28, 2011 5:55:28 GMT -5
Yes, I see. Thank you for the reference.
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Post by enkur on Jul 29, 2011 0:04:18 GMT -5
And these should be the most archaic forms of the sign NE: Attachments:
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Post by enkur on Jul 29, 2011 0:05:50 GMT -5
Those too: Attachments:
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Post by enkur on Jul 29, 2011 0:08:39 GMT -5
They should be of the Late Uruk period (Uruk IV-III), (ca. 3300-3000 BC) according to the sign list in enennuru.net though I don't see them there. By the way, I have an entire archaic sign list from this period as a mht file on my computer but can't remember at all from which site I have downloaded it. Attachments:
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Post by enkur on Jul 29, 2011 0:29:47 GMT -5
I forgot to post the c variant of NE sign. Attachments:
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Post by sheshki on Jul 29, 2011 9:14:43 GMT -5
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Post by enkur on Aug 1, 2011 15:35:12 GMT -5
Yes, I've taken them from there By the way, it's an interesting synchronicity to discuss the sign of NE around the feast of NE.NE. gar, or ne izi gar according to the Nippurian calendar - there was a new moon on the 30th of July and it was almost at the 1st of August - the feast of Lammas according to the European pagan tradition. Anyway, the Lord of the True Tree was commemorated and on the morning I had a dream of two deceased dear to me. Three days ago I received a spam email from the address of another deceased friend of mine
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Post by nininimzue on Aug 20, 2011 5:02:22 GMT -5
Of course you should order the paper. There is never a reason not to learn stuff about one's deities. Wiggerman's Transtigridian Snake Gods is one of his best articles and one of my faves as well *pats the book next to her*
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Post by sheshki on Oct 23, 2011 19:39:31 GMT -5
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Post by seeker666utu on Mar 19, 2015 17:04:33 GMT -5
An arcaic meaning of Dionysus is Dio-nũsa thus God of the tree, which combined with his epithets : Endendros "he in the tree" or Dendritēs, "he of the tree" seem to be a link to Ningishzida.
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Post by enkur on Mar 22, 2015 10:49:36 GMT -5
Yes, this makes sense in respect to Ningishzida. Thank you Would you quote some sources concerning this meaning and the epithets related?
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Post by seeker666utu on Mar 22, 2015 14:14:45 GMT -5
I'll check my books on Greek mythology when I get home.I'm sure I saw it in one of those...at least I hope so. I do know several sources mentioned Pherecydes of Syros as claiming that as the meaning. I'm hoping I didn't allow wikipedia to poison the well & recalling it from wiki. If I did I apologize for not checking my sources before I posted.
But Prof. Dr. Michael Janda of the Institut für Indogermanische Sprachwissenschaft, posits a similar theory if one of my sources are right. It is supposed to be in his book : Die musik nach dem chaos. But since I don't own it or read let alone speak German I cannot verify.
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Post by sheshki on Mar 22, 2015 15:42:59 GMT -5
Dionysus
The idea that Dionysus was a foreign god introduced to Greece in the Archaic period stems from the German scholar Rhode who argued this in 1894 in Psyche: Seelencult und Unsterblichkeitsglaube der Griechen, (it is available online) and the hypothesis that he is foreign has hung around ever since. This is due to wowsers in scholarship finding his cult a little too uninhibited,violent and sexy to be nice "Greek" and because some classical Greek writers attempted to write explanations in later periods, again because of his status in the classical period as a foreign god that dates back to the Archaic Period and the Homeric Hymns. (Hymn 7 says he was born on mount Nyssa in "Phoenicia" and hence the name Dio-nusos.) However, according to Herodotus and random other ancient Greek writers Dionysus was of Thracian origin, Thrace is in Greece.
The foreign thesis went to hell in a handcart in the 1950s when tablets with Linear B were discovered at Pylos that seemed to argue for an early Aegean origin for Dionysus, his name was thought to possibly occur on offering texts along with Zeus. Pylos: PY Xa102 & Xa 1419
This evidence was later augmented with the discovery of a new text with offerings of honey naming him from Chania in Crete KH Gq 5
The date for the god Dionysus is now accepted by Aegeanists to go back to the Late Bronze Age Mycenaean period,(ca 1400) with a status as great (or possibly greater) than Zeus. Opinions from earlier sources are therefore retrospective. His seniority on the tablet from Crete has caused some scholars to claim a Minoan cult origin...which btw still makes him Aegean. Surprisingly, quite a few contemporary academics are still hanging on to the original hypothesis by Rhode.
His name on these texts is Di-wo-nu-so Di-wo is currently accepted to form the genitive of "Zeus" so `"of Zeus" (just as Dio in later Greek refers to Zeus. It is also the root for god). The nu-so is still contested, but one scholar made a bid for it being an unusual form of "son" so perhaps "son of Zeus". No translation is currently absolutely secure.
References Duev, R. "Zeus and Dionysus in the Light of the Linear B Texts" Colloquium Romanum 2006. Bernabe, A. "Dionysus in the Myceneaean World" Redefining Dionysos. MythosEikonPoiesis,2013. Palaima, T.G. "Appendix One: The Gods in Linear B Tablets" in Anthology of Classical Mythology: Primary Sources in Translation. 2004.
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Post by enkur on Mar 22, 2015 17:11:30 GMT -5
Thrace is not in Greece only. When this is said usually the north-eastern Aegean shore of Greece is considered only - together with the valley of the Maritza river. The most of the ancient Thrace however lies on the territory of the modern Bulgaria and the entire European part of Turkey is also part of it. Much blood was shed for its liberation from the Ottoman Empire in 1912 and then between Greece and Bulgaria in the WW1 and WW2. A lot of different Thracian peoples were attested on the territory of Bulgaria. Some of them had even strong kingdoms in different historic periods. Even the Dacians north of the Danube river were of the same ethnic group. The ancient Thracian peoples spoke an IE language quite distinct from the Greek. The Phrygians were also a Thracian people who occupied Asia Minor after the Hittite empire's downfall in the 12th century BCE. As I wrote above, they worshiped Dionysos under the name of Sabazius. Euripides' "Bacchae" (405 BCE) categorically relates the Dionysus's cult as coming from Asia. The name of his mother Semele was in fact the Thracian for earth, "zemela" where most probably the Slavic for earth, "zemlya", comes from. As for the Cretan Minoans, they had to do with the Hellenes as much as the modern Bulgarians have to do with the ancient Thracians if this connection to the deity is to be considered. Dionysus was a non-Hellenic deity anyway. The Aegean is a vast concept and the pan-Hellenist theories are not to be taken as too authoritative on the matter. If I am to refer to all the works written on the subject shall their authors' names and titles in Cyrillic speak anything to anybody in the West?
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Post by sheshki on Apr 10, 2015 18:38:53 GMT -5
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dumu ki-en-gi
dubsartur (junior scribe)
en-ša3-kuš2-an-na
Posts: 36
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Post by dumu ki-en-gi on Oct 10, 2015 6:37:59 GMT -5
Story of Adapa When he came to Heaven, when he approached the door of An, At the door of Anu, Dumuzid and Ningishzidda are standing. When they saw him, Adapa, they cried: "Help, Sir, for whom dost thou so appear? Adapa, For whom art thou clad in a mourning garment?" "In the country two gods have vanished; therefore am I clad In mourning garments." "Who are the two gods, who have vanished from the land?" "Dumuzid and Ningishzidda." I ask ..... the death of ningishzidda similar to what happened with Dumuzid
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